Angel/Human Question

[Luna]

I think he would still be Angel because he has his soul for so long and he has developed too much to be Liam again.

[SlytherinAngelic]

Well, I agree with the fact that the writers put too much emphasis on Angel and Angelus, seperating him and giving him two different names was unnessecary enough. I can see where other fans, view Angel and Angelus as two different people. Even though that concept is totally ridiculous to me. Everyone here pretty much agrees that Angel and Angelus are one in the same. But you have to admit, the names didn't help that concept, the labeling and all that. In that case, if Angel was a totally different being from Angelus, Spike should have at least gotten another name when he was all souled up. It would only be fair.

[Bert]

Originally Posted by SlytherinAngelic

Well, I agree with the fact that the writers put too much emphasis on Angel and Angelus, seperating him and giving him two different names was unnessecary enough. I can see where other fans, view Angel and Angelus as two different people. Even though that concept is totally ridiculous to me. Everyone here pretty much agrees that Angel and Angelus are one in the same. But you have to admit, the names didn't help that concept, the labeling and all that. In that case, if Angel was a totally different being from Angelus, Spike should have at least gotten another name when he was all souled up. It would only be fair.

Of course you could argue that Spike without soul is no different to Spike with soul, since Spike was in the place where he wanted his soul back - though his motives are questionable.

Angelus had his soul thrust upon him, which resulted in a dramatic turn-around in his personality. Since Spike was expecting his, and indeed wanting it, he didn't change much.

[SlytherinAngelic]

If Spike was to lose his soul, I'm more than sure he wouldn't revert back to his darker days. But if Angel was to lose soul, and Angelus was free to roam, he more than likely will be... well... you know, evil. So what you said made me think, it explained a lot of why Spike's soulless and soul beings act the same. Not much personality change. But how would that show for Angel, he cannot control his demonic half? He can't control himself if he loses his soul? I mean, just thinking about it of course. What you said made a lot of sense.

[Shadow4Corangela]

Originally Posted by Luna

I think he would still be Angel because he has his soul for so long and he has developed too much to be Liam again.

For the longest time, I thought that after Angel shanshued that he would revert back to Liam, the immature, sex-crazed, alcohol-loving testosterone -filled boy that starts fights just cause. But your pov has me rethinking the whole situation.

[Dannyblue]

Originally Posted by Cordy's Bitch

People seem to forget that Angel as Liam was an immature, womanizing asshole. Is Angelus that far off?

Yeah, I think there was very little difference between Liam and early Angelus. Well, accept for being all homicidal and such. He was probably still indulging his every desire, which now included murder and mayhem. Trying to show everybody how big and bad he was. (After years of listening to his father tell him he was worthless.)

If anything, Angelus is just Liam without a soul. He's everything Angel represses, both the evil vampire, and the drunk, manwhore mortal.

Angel was the personality built from the guilt and shame he felt about both Liam (who he knows wasn't a good man) and Angelus. He doesn't want to be either one, and represses both of those sides of himself. I think Angel and Angelus are so different because Angelus embraces all of those not-so-nice parts of Liam that Angel is ashamed of and represses.

I also think Angelus's opinion of Angel (he's humorless, boring, uptight, masochistic, allergic to fun, etc) is exactly the same as Liam's would be if he could travel through time and see what Angel was like.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by Dannyblue

Yeah, I think there was very little difference between Liam and early Angelus. Well, accept for being all homicidal and such. He was probably still indulging his every desire, which now included murder and mayhem. Trying to show everybody how big and bad he was. (After years of listening to his father tell him he was worthless.)

If anything, Angelus is just Liam without a soul. He's everything Angel represses, both the evil vampire, and the drunk, manwhore mortal.

Angel was the personality built from the guilt and shame he felt about both Liam (who he knows wasn't a good man) and Angelus. He doesn't want to be either one, and represses both of those sides of himself. I think Angel and Angelus are so different because Angelus embraces all of those not-so-nice parts of Liam that Angel is ashamed of and represses.

I also think Angelus's opinion of Angel (he's humorless, boring, uptight, masochistic, allergic to fun, etc) is exactly the same as Liam's would be if he could travel through time and see what Angel was like.

Great Post!

Why doesn't Angel just get a permanent soul like Spike?

I think he would for Cordy.

[jean-vic]

I don't see Angel and Angelus as one and the same. There is too much difference. Angel's behaviour, speech etc etc changes dramatically with and without the soul. Even their drastic change in motivation is a sign of separation for me. I mean, Angelus loves to hurt people and is very verbal of his hatred for helping people. Why then would he help them because he felt bad. Angel has been verbal of his hatred of "his" evil acts. Why then would he just be evil because he no longer feels bad. We don't do things or not because we feel bad or not. If the soul is merely a conscience, why does behaviour in Angel change?

However, there is clear evidence which backs up this theory. Angel is cleary said throughout the series, not just in the hated Series 4, to be different to Angelus.
1) Judge found no humanity in Angelus yet found humanity in Dru, Spike and the vampire who enjoyed reading. These vampires had elements of their human counterparts left in them, bar the conscience. However, Angelus had nothing so cannot be Liam without a conscience. That leads me to believe that Angel is Liam in a vampire's body.
2) For a while after re-ensouling, Angel cannot remember anything. In Becoming he cannot remember anything of the previous few months. That says to me that he wasn't there. Then when he has settled back into that body again, the memories that exist within the ever present Angelus, merge with Angel's bringing about overriding guilt.
3) In Season 4, Angel cannot remember meeting the Beast even though Angelus can. Obviously, there is a difference there. How can one remember an event while the other can't if they are one?
4) Not pure evidence, but evidence nonetheless. Angel's friends. Wesley knew more about Angelus than any other character and he clearly distinguished between the two as people. "Angel is gone." He knew his friend could never do those things. Cordelia, who had experienced both, clearly distinguished between the two. Even Buffy did!!!
5) Angel was intelligent, but nowhere near as intelligent as Wesley. However, in Season 4, Wesley says, "Angelus is smarter than I am" or words to that effect.

A theory has been proposed on many boards. Angel and Angelus are separate beings. Angelus is always present. That is his body. He is always consciouss. However, when the soul (Angel) is there, he is forced back and made to watch. He is like a tempting whisper to Angel as his latent desires transfer to Angel's consciousness, like the ,memories, giving Angel the illusion that he is one with Angelus and making him feel all that guilt as any good person would.

Good person? That womanizing asshole? Yes. For you see, Liam was a good man who whored his days away to get back at daddy dearest who always criticised. His father criticised through love, so Liam rebelled causing further criticism. As Angel said, the women back then were boring and plain. Liam wanted more than women and that village, but felt he could never amount ot anything because of his father. Even 100 years after "getting a soul" he was "useless", until Buffy. It was her, Doyle and the guilt that gve him the push he needed to change.

That's my opinion anyway. Angel and Liam are the same, save only for the guilt of Angelus' actions while Angelus is the demon that committed all those atrocities for 150 years.

[Dannyblue]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

I mean, Angelus loves to hurt people and is very verbal of his hatred for helping people. Why then would he help them because he felt bad.

I bet Liam didn't care all that much about helping the poor and downtrodden, either. Even Angel, after getting a soul, didn't immediately switch to "help the helpless" mode. He was still being pretty selfish early on. But I think the guilt of all the things he remembered doing as Angelus tweaked the conscience Liam had but didn't put to good use.

I mean, when you think about it, Angel went through the most drastic, most extreme form of sensitivity training ever. There are men who start as jerks but turn into descent human beings. Angel was sort of forced into it. But, even then, it took him a while, sense he spent most of his first hundred years moping around and feeling sorry for himself rather than actually going out to find people in need of help.

Angel has been verbal of his hatred of "his" evil acts. Why then would he just be evil because he no longer feels bad. We don't do things or not because we feel bad or not. If the soul is merely a conscience, why does behaviour in Angel change?

Because it's not just a question of the soul leaving the building. There's also the primal, animalistic, bloody-thirsty, sadistic demon in residence to consider.

1) Judge found no humanity in Angelus yet found humanity in Dru, Spike and the vampire who enjoyed reading. These vampires had elements of their human counterparts left in them, bar the conscience. However, Angelus had nothing so cannot be Liam without a conscience. That leads me to believe that Angel is Liam in a vampire's body.

Well, Dru was nuts, and a large part of her seemed to be trapped in that time before she was vamped. And they've made a point about Spike retaining a lot of his humanity even without a soul.

2) For a while after re-ensouling, Angel cannot remember anything. In Becoming he cannot remember anything of the previous few months. That says to me that he wasn't there. Then when he has settled back into that body again, the memories that exist within the ever present Angelus, merge with Angel's bringing about overriding guilt.

We've only ever seen one other vamp get re-ensouled, and we don't know the exact effect it had on him right afterwards. Maybe Spike didn't remember anything right away, either.

3) In Season 4, Angel cannot remember meeting the Beast even though Angelus can. Obviously, there is a difference there. How can one remember an event while the other can't if they are one?

The way they sorta kinda explained it was that it wasn't so much that Angel didn't remember something that happened to Angelus. It was that whoever the Beast was working for (the big mystery at the time) had been busy trying to erase all references to the Beast and what it was up to. So the Mystery Bad had erased Angel's memory of the event. However, it couldn't erase the demon's memory because, at the time the erasing was going on, the demon was dormant/repressed/whatever. And, despite the erasing, Angel was still remembering flashes of the event. Just not enough for it to be helpful.

Of course, it was all just an excuse to give them a reason to take out Angel's soul and let Angelus free.

4) Not pure evidence, but evidence nonetheless. Angel's friends. Wesley knew more about Angelus than any other character and he clearly distinguished between the two as people. "Angel is gone." He knew his friend could never do those things. Cordelia, who had experienced both, clearly distinguished between the two. Even Buffy did!!!

In a sense, they are correct. When Angelus is free, Angel (the soul) is gone. As a result, Angelus (the demon) can do things Angel (the soul) would never allow it to do.

If Spike lost his soul, I'd consider William (the soul) to be gone, too. Same difference.

5) Angel was intelligent, but nowhere near as intelligent as Wesley. However, in Season 4, Wesley says, "Angelus is smarter than I am" or words to that effect.

I don't think Angelus was really smarter in the book learnin' sense. What he was was more cunning and crafty. But we've seen Angel pull those traits out on occasion too.

Good person? That womanizing asshole? Yes. For you see, Liam was a good man who whored his days away to get back at daddy dearest who always criticised.

Liam was a "good" in so far as he wasn't a killer. But he wasn't out there working hard to help his family, or extending a helping hand to those in need. And I bet he didn't care much about what happened to the women he slept with, or the guys he kicked the crap out of during his bar brawls.

I do think Angel probably judges Liam way more harshly than he deserves. But that's Angel's way.

[nikkiwawa]

I don't see Angel and Angelus as one and the same.

I don't really see Angel and Angelus are two different people. ...he's the same person, with two different personalities. Angel is Angelus, just with a soul, plain and simple. All the examples in Buffy or Angel, will not change that fact because there's A LOT of inconsistencies in the Buffy and Angelverse. So, we can't always go by examples, given. Take, for example, Angel not remembering everything he did as Angelus, when they re-ensouled him, in BTVS. However, when Angel is re-ensouled in season 4 of ATS, he remembers everything. When Angel went beige, you might as well have called him Angelus. It's in him. Angelus is and will ALWAYS be there until he is rewarded with his Shanshu.

I've never seen Angel and Angelus as two different people. Two different personalities? Yes, somewhat. Maybe, I'm crazy. I actually like Angel and Angelus lol Who knows. But, I can't say they are two different people when it's the same person, same body. The soul is the only thing that tames Angelus. And, I really can't say that because...yeah...Beige!Angel happened.

Is my thinking wrong?

[jean-vic]

I respect your opinions. However, I don't see it. I cannot see how the good man I came to know as Angel could do those things and I can't see how simply not feeling guilty would make him do so. He remembers how it felt, and Angelus has said so, but he still does evil. Yet, Angel never wants to hurt people.

I am one who holds the belief that Angelus was born from Angel/Liam. I am very much a believer that while they are a very separate entity, everything that is Angelus is formed from the latent evil in Angel, an evil that resides in everyone. Unlike other vampires though, traits of humanity didn't remain and Angelus is all demon.

[nikkiwawa]

I love Angel. I mean, I call him my Angelbear, but to me, he's Angelus with a soul and a conscience. They definitely have different personalities. Remember, Angel tried to kill Wesley. Yeah, it was over Connor. He also let Darla and Dru kill a room full of lawyers. Evil lawyers, yes, but they were still human. So, Angel does want to hurt people, once in awhile.

I should add on that I respect your opinions, too. Debates can be good.

[Dannyblue]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

I respect your opinions. However, I don't see it. I cannot see how the good man I came to know as Angel could do those things and I can't see how simply not feeling guilty would make him do so. He remembers how it felt, and Angelus has said so, but he still does evil. Yet, Angel never wants to hurt people.

I wouldn't say Angel has never wanted to hurt people. He has wanted to, and he has gone ahead and done it.

I think even good people are capable of doing (or wanting to do) some pretty bad things. It's that lovely conscience that stops us. But what if that conscience was gone?

For example, I've sometimes gotten so mad at people that I've had a flash of, well, doing something violent. I can just see it in my head. And, in my rage, a part of me really wants to do it. What stops me is that I know I'll feel bad about it later. I know because I always do. Even when I just get snippy with someone, and I know I was justified, I'll feel bad. So, if I reach out and pop this person in the nose, I know I'm going to spend the next few days/weeks/months suffering a guilty conscience for it.

But what if I didn't have a guilty conscience to worry about? What if I wouldn't feel bad or guilty, at all, if I actually hit someone? What if I'd actually like it? What would there be to stop me from doing that bad thing in the first place?

Nothing.

That's the difference between Angel and Angelus. Angel has a conscience that keeps him from doing most of the bad things he probably thinks about doing. Angelus doesn't.

Personally, I don't think the fact that Angel and Angelus are the same guy (just one has a conscience and the other doesn't) means Angel isn't a good man. If anything, the fact that he fights all of those Angelusy urges, and couldn't just go on doing evil things back in the day when he first got his soul back (even though that probably would've been easier) shows that he's, basically, a good guy. (And I'm including Liam in that, too. Because, while he certainly had issues, Liam wasn't a killer.)

But there's still a demon in there. And Angel can be pushed too far. And, when he is, the demon peeks through a little more than usual. And I actually think Beige!Angel (soul and all) can be scarier than Angelus.

[jean-vic]

Yes, I agree that Angel has a dark side and he can let urges rule him, like in Season 2. Yet he doesn't have a desire to kill for the sake of it. Angelus killed because he enjoyed making people suffer. Angel hates seeing people suffer and fights (or did before they went with the big storylines) to prevent. He was about saving souls, not destroying them like Angelus. What I can't fathom is why Angel, without a conscience, would make people suffer. Why does not having one make Angel do things he hates and having one makes Angelus do things he hates? There must be a difference.

Even Darla, feeling bad, didn't try to help people. Spike helps for the sake of it, not to HELP people. He is more about do good because what else is there, not that I'm trying to knock him. And Angel, in his 100 years of nomad wandering, did try to help people but was knocked back every time. There was somthing there before Buffy, Doyle etc came along. He has always been a good man in need of a push. A conscience doesn't make a man or make him want to do good. That must come from the man, and Angelus has no shred of wanting to do good in him. Why would he because he feels bad?

[SlytherinAngelic]

Yes, I agree that Angel has a dark side and he can let urges rule him, like in Season 2. Yet he doesn't have a desire to kill for the sake of it. Angelus killed because he enjoyed making people suffer. Angel hates seeing people suffer and fights (or did before they went with the big storylines) to prevent. He was about saving souls, not destroying them like Angelus. What I can't fathom is why Angel, without a conscience, would make people suffer. Why does not having one make Angel do things he hates and having one makes Angelus do things he hates? There must be a difference.

Valid points, but they are leading into one conclusion. "Soul". Which I'm sure people before me might have said. But I look at it all like this, vampires do not have a conscience, and killing is an enjoyment for them. Angelus enjoys killing because he does not have that guilt. Conscience is an ability or sense that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong. It leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral values, and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when our actions conform to our moral values. So think to yourself, if you didn't have a consience, you wouldn't be able to know what was right or what was wrong. A soul is just a consience. Angel so happens to have a soul, a big duh on that one, and is able to distinguish between good and bad. But he is also a demon, Angelus is the demon. Angelus is the demon with a soul, who just so happened to have shorten his name.


Even Darla, feeling bad, didn't try to help people. Spike helps for the sake of it, not to HELP people. He is more about do good because what else is there, not that I'm trying to knock him. And Angel, in his 100 years of nomad wandering, did try to help people but was knocked back every time. There was somthing there before Buffy, Doyle etc came along. He has always been a good man in need of a push. A conscience doesn't make a man or make him want to do good. That must come from the man, and Angelus has no shred of wanting to do good in him. Why would he because he feels bad

But Darla did not have a soul for a hundred years nor Spike for that matter. Spike never voiced his opinion about his demonic side. I believed he accepted it, because he chose the soul, it wasn't pushed upon him as another member had said earlier. Angel was forced with a soul, it gave him a dramatic persona change. He was full of guilt, he wanted to stop that guilt. Helping others in his opinion, will weigh out the bad things in life he had done. If a human being was not born with a conscience, I bet you that they wouldn't be stop themselve from doing something bad. Look at psycopaths, humans might I add, a disorder that makes a person lack remorse or guilt.

And if Angel WAS NOT Angelus, why would he feel the need to redeem himself from Angelus past actions? If Angel was not Angelus, he wouldn't feel guilt. It wasn't him, so why would he need to feel bad about what someone else did?

Which also made me think. Why would the gypsies give ANGELUS a curse, if it wasn't effected him? I mean, they gave the demon a soul, so he could feel bad for what he did. They wouldn't punish an innocence, for another's actions.