ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark

brownsbros3 · 08-28-2005, 09:37 PM

www.jumptheshark.com has listings on BTVS and ATS (along with practically every show ever thought of). The website allows fans to vote on when a TV show jumped the shark. For those of you that may be unfamiliar with the term "jumping the shark" is when a TV show has reached its peak, and then starts its downhill slide.

For Angel, the top 10 responses thus far are:
1.) Never Jumped
2.) Doyle's Death
3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor)
4.) Connor's birth
5.) Darla is pregnant
6.) Angel is a puppet
7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart
8.) Death (Darla to save the baby)
9.) Day One
10.) Death (Cordelia)

For Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the top 10 responses thus far are:
1.) Never Jumped
2.) Tara's Death
3.) Once More With Feeling
4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn)
5.) Graduation
6.) Riley and the Initiative
7.) Willow becomes gay
8.) Day One
9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike)
10.) Death (Buffy)

k8316 · 08-28-2005, 10:03 PM

I think if Doyle's death was when Angel jumped the shark it really is a shame they made four and a half more seasons.

rousedower · 08-28-2005, 10:05 PM

You've posted this before.

Mr.Brightside · 08-29-2005, 09:37 AM

I can't believe number 8 was Death (Darla to save the baby). What was so bad about that?

brownsbros3 · 08-29-2005, 09:49 AM

Somebody else may have. I didn't even know about the jumptheshark.com website until 5 days ago.

My take on each one of these for ATS:
1.) Never Jumped - Well I wouldn't say that. You look at the first three seasons vs. the last two, and it's clear that something went horribly wrong along the way.

2.) Doyle's Death - For me that was a little too soon to say that it jumped the shark. It took a few episodes, but I think after Doyle's death the show did get better for a while.

3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor) - This was what I voted. This was the worst thing I've ever seen in nearly 30 years of watching television.

4.) Connor's birth - The birth didn't really bother me. I thought there were many ways they could have dealt with it. They of course screwed it up. But the four episodes that aired right after it were good, and two of them (Birthday and Waiting in the Wings) I'd consider among the series best ever.

5.) Darla is pregnant - It's too bad they couldn't have saved the storyline for season four, and have Angel knock Cordelia up instead. We first found out that Darla was pregnant at the end of Heartthrob. Heartthrob was the first episode that barred the crossovers, which was one of the reasons I liked season three the best.

6.) Angel is a puppet - A cheesy moment in season five. In my view, Angel had jumped long before that happened.

7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart - I could understand why some voted on that. In hindsight, it was icing on the sawdust cake that was season four.

8.) Death (Darla to save the baby) - See #4

9.) Day One - That was really too harsh. I read through some of the responses over there and apparently there were some folks that didn't think too highly of David or Charisma.

10.) Death (Cordelia) - It was definitely a memorable moment. I think the episodes for season five improved after her death, but the overall damage was still done way before this happened.

My take on the BTVS responses:
My personal choice wasn't in the top 10. I would have chosen They Did It (Buffy and Parker). It was what started her slide into nympho Buffy.

1.) Never Jumped - I think it actually jumped twice. To me it jumped in season four, got back in season five, but then jumped again in seasons 6-7.

2.) Tara's Death - Definitely a tearjerking moment, but I think it actually saved season six from going down as the worst season of BTVS ever.

3.) Once More With Feeling - Personally, I never saw the fascination with episode. For me, BTVS jumped a second time in season six when Buffy revealed to Spike that Willow's spell brought her back after she had went to Heaven following death #2.

4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn) - I didn't really care for the storyline, but I thought Michelle Trachtenberg held her own with the established characters, so I can't say it jumped there.

5.) Graduation - It was definitely a turning point in the series. It was the last episode with Angel and Cordelia as full time cast members. I could see why some would have picked that, because the first three seasons were hard to top.

6.) Riley and the Initiative - I thought that was one of the more interesting things about season four.

7.) Willow becomes gay - I didn't the way it was handled, but it didn't kill the show for me.

8.) Day One - Welcome to the Hellmouth was an awesome beginning to the series. But like with Angel, I don't think one episode is enough to say a show has jumped.

9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike) - One of the many lowlights for me in season six, but that year had been on a downward spiral way before this happened.

10.) Death (Buffy) - Had they cut the series off here with Buffy's swan dive, I would have been more inclined towards saying the show never jumped.

raregem · 08-29-2005, 10:43 AM

ATS: When Spike joined
Buffy: After highschool it just got worse and worse

Mr.Brightside · 08-29-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raregem

ATS: When Spike joined
Buffy: After highschool it just got worse and worse

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike

. But everyone has there opinions.

v120176 · 08-29-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike

. But everyone has there opinions.

I think they jumped before Spike, but it was like the last straw, the point of no return.
Even in ATS 4, even with the destruction of all the characters (not only Cordy), you could see something that reminded you ATS. Even if it was just a veeeeeeryyy little thing. Spike coming and what that meant: bringing BTVS to ATS, made the show loose the last vestige of the old ATS. Even if it was minimun, when Spike came, it went away. Maybe what left was the hope of recovering what ATS was in seasons 1 to 3. Introducing storylines that didn't belong to the show or were ended long time ago and forcing the viewers to care for characters that maybe only knew by name it was the lst straw. Don't forget that according to WB only a 30% of BTVS fans watched ATS, but according to the ratings and the official raking of tv shows for that year, ATS and BTVS had almost the same rating, so it worked both ways: only 30% of ATs fans watched BTVS (that's pure logic), so for a lot of people Buffy, Giles, B/A/S, Xander, Andrew, etc meant nothing and couldn't care less for them.... and they based the whole season in the promise of Buffy coming to town....

Mr.Brightside · 08-29-2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v120176

I think they jumped before Spike, but it was like the last straw, the point of no return.
Even in ATS 4, even with the destruction of all the characters (not only Cordy), you could see something that reminded you ATS. Even if it was just a veeeeeeryyy little thing. Spike coming and what that meant: bringing BTVS to ATS, made the show loose the last vestige of the old ATS. Even if it was minimun, when Spike came, it went away. Maybe what left was the hope of recovering what ATS was in seasons 1 to 3.

That's true, the thing that reminded you of the old ATS in Season 4. Was that they were doing the usual. Cracking down on the books and trying to figure out how to kill a demon or demons. When they went to Wolframhart, everything seem to be easy for them IMO. The only thing that was frustrating the Characters was all the work they had to do, for Wolframhart. So everything change once they step through the doors of Wolframhart.

psychofilly · 08-29-2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike

. But everyone has there opinions.

Were you being sarcastic? If not, that's a pretty naieve opinion. A lot of people couldn't stand Spike. I loved his character, personally, but I know of a lot of people that thought Spike and Spuffy ruined Buffy.

For me Buffy jumped when she came back in season six. In hidsight, Angel jumped at Birthday, though at the time I would have said the last two minutes of Apocalypse Nowish.

Mr.Brightside · 08-29-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

Were you being sarcastic? If not, that's a pretty naieve opinion. A lot of people couldn't stand Spike. I loved his character, personally, but I know of a lot of people that thought Spike and Spuffy ruined Buffy.

I was being sarcastic, there were alot of people who couldn't stand Spike. When he made a attempt to try and rape Buffy, forgot what episode. Alot of people started to hate his character. But, Spike was one of my favorite characters.

DamnSkippy · 08-29-2005, 11:40 AM

As far as jumping the shark goes, I'd say:

Ats: Darla pregnant.
Btvs: Buffy returns from the dead.

As far as it being too late to turn back and recapture the glory days, I'd say:

Ats: The gang joins W&H (even after ConCor, there could have been a wonderful redemption story that would have been dark and angsty and wonderfully old school, but they crapped on it).
Btvs: Spike gets a soul (if they had dechipped him and returned him to his evil self, the dynamic on the show could have been recaptured and Buffy could have regained some self respect and control again. Along with this is the break-up of the core gang and the entrance of the potentials that wouldn't die.)

TeSjah · 08-29-2005, 12:10 PM

BtVs: Mid-Season 4. Everyone changed. Willow turned gay. Everyone picks on Xander. Willow turned gay. Buffy's new it's-all-about-me-attitude. Uncool Giles. Willow turned gay. Uncool villian. Willow turned gay.

Angel: (You are all *so* going to kill me.) It went downhill after Home.

galathea · 08-29-2005, 12:44 PM

I would go with ConCor too, but then everytime I realize when I am in the middle of S5 that S4 at least had the advantage of *feeling* like Angel. The dark sets, the Hyperion, the full cast (Cordelia, even when evil better than no Cordelia at all, Lilah and Connor, yeah I liked him). And as DamnSkippy already stated if they had a real redemption story in S5 for the characters I wouldn't have been happy about ConCor but would at least be more forgving.

So in the end it would be the joining of W&H .. though I found that story arc intriguing at first thought.

DamnSkippy · 08-29-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galathea

so in the end it would be the joining of W&H .. though I found that story arc intriguing at first thought.

That's why second and third thoughts are generally a good idea.

08-28-2005, 09:37 PM	#1
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark www.jumptheshark.com has listings on BTVS and ATS (along with practically every show ever thought of). The website allows fans to vote on when a TV show jumped the shark. For those of you that may be unfamiliar with the term "jumping the shark" is when a TV show has reached its peak, and then starts its downhill slide. For Angel, the top 10 responses thus far are: 1.) Never Jumped 2.) Doyle's Death 3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor) 4.) Connor's birth 5.) Darla is pregnant 6.) Angel is a puppet 7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart 8.) Death (Darla to save the baby) 9.) Day One 10.) Death (Cordelia) For Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the top 10 responses thus far are: 1.) Never Jumped 2.) Tara's Death 3.) Once More With Feeling 4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn) 5.) Graduation 6.) Riley and the Initiative 7.) Willow becomes gay 8.) Day One 9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike) 10.) Death (Buffy)

08-28-2005, 10:05 PM	#3
rousedower cancelled Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 4,777	You've posted this before. __________________ Angel:"Cordelia- thinks I'm melodramatic?" Dylan:"Well, you did say that you were gonna kill my cousin." Angel:"That's not melodrama. Melodrama is- She was here?!" Stake Darla #13 Greenie Groupie #13

08-29-2005, 10:43 AM	#6
raregem Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 36	my opinion ATS: When Spike joined Buffy: After highschool it just got worse and worse

08-29-2005, 11:40 AM	#12
DamnSkippy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 4,895	As far as jumping the shark goes, I'd say: Ats: Darla pregnant. Btvs: Buffy returns from the dead. As far as it being too late to turn back and recapture the glory days, I'd say: Ats: The gang joins W&H (even after ConCor, there could have been a wonderful redemption story that would have been dark and angsty and wonderfully old school, but they crapped on it). Btvs: Spike gets a soul (if they had dechipped him and returned him to his evil self, the dynamic on the show could have been recaptured and Buffy could have regained some self respect and control again. Along with this is the break-up of the core gang and the entrance of the potentials that wouldn't die.) __________________ Deb ~ Bark/Angel Chipper/Shipper C/A Stillness - Non-Animated Icon Challenge Community devoted to Cordy and Angel David Stillness - Non-animated Icon Challenge Community for David Boreanaz Bones Hush - Textless Icon Challenge Community for the show Bones Nonna Rosina Productions

08-29-2005, 12:10 PM	#13
TeSjah Dutchess of LaLaLand Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Holland, baby! Posts: 1,179	BtVs: Mid-Season 4. Everyone changed. Willow turned gay. Everyone picks on Xander. Willow turned gay. Buffy's new it's-all-about-me-attitude. Uncool Giles. Willow turned gay. Uncool villian. Willow turned gay. Angel: (You are all so going to kill me.) It went downhill after Home. __________________ Lindsay merely huffed at her statement. "I see you're taking some for the team these days," he said, eyeing the cane she was still using. "Well, it's hard to top taking a dagger to the jugular, but I do what I can," Lilah shrugged. 'Shipping: CordyღAngel ~ LilahღWesley ~ ReginaღHook

08-28-2005, 10:03 PM	#2
k8316 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: ...Fumbling Towards Ecstacy... Posts: 258	I think if Doyle's death was when Angel jumped the shark it really is a shame they made four and a half more seasons. __________________ Kate

08-29-2005, 09:37 AM	#4
Mr.Brightside Queen Charisma... Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quor Toth a Hell DiMeNsIon Posts: 892	I can't believe number 8 was Death (Darla to save the baby). What was so bad about that? __________________ ~Charisma is my Wife, did ya know~ "I grow up in Quor Toth....A Hell Dimension" "Full of all sorts of things that you can't even imagine"

08-29-2005, 09:49 AM	#5
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	Somebody else may have. I didn't even know about the jumptheshark.com website until 5 days ago. My take on each one of these for ATS: 1.) Never Jumped - Well I wouldn't say that. You look at the first three seasons vs. the last two, and it's clear that something went horribly wrong along the way. 2.) Doyle's Death - For me that was a little too soon to say that it jumped the shark. It took a few episodes, but I think after Doyle's death the show did get better for a while. 3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor) - This was what I voted. This was the worst thing I've ever seen in nearly 30 years of watching television. 4.) Connor's birth - The birth didn't really bother me. I thought there were many ways they could have dealt with it. They of course screwed it up. But the four episodes that aired right after it were good, and two of them (Birthday and Waiting in the Wings) I'd consider among the series best ever. 5.) Darla is pregnant - It's too bad they couldn't have saved the storyline for season four, and have Angel knock Cordelia up instead. We first found out that Darla was pregnant at the end of Heartthrob. Heartthrob was the first episode that barred the crossovers, which was one of the reasons I liked season three the best. 6.) Angel is a puppet - A cheesy moment in season five. In my view, Angel had jumped long before that happened. 7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart - I could understand why some voted on that. In hindsight, it was icing on the sawdust cake that was season four. 8.) Death (Darla to save the baby) - See #4 9.) Day One - That was really too harsh. I read through some of the responses over there and apparently there were some folks that didn't think too highly of David or Charisma. 10.) Death (Cordelia) - It was definitely a memorable moment. I think the episodes for season five improved after her death, but the overall damage was still done way before this happened. My take on the BTVS responses: My personal choice wasn't in the top 10. I would have chosen They Did It (Buffy and Parker). It was what started her slide into nympho Buffy. 1.) Never Jumped - I think it actually jumped twice. To me it jumped in season four, got back in season five, but then jumped again in seasons 6-7. 2.) Tara's Death - Definitely a tearjerking moment, but I think it actually saved season six from going down as the worst season of BTVS ever. 3.) Once More With Feeling - Personally, I never saw the fascination with episode. For me, BTVS jumped a second time in season six when Buffy revealed to Spike that Willow's spell brought her back after she had went to Heaven following death #2. 4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn) - I didn't really care for the storyline, but I thought Michelle Trachtenberg held her own with the established characters, so I can't say it jumped there. 5.) Graduation - It was definitely a turning point in the series. It was the last episode with Angel and Cordelia as full time cast members. I could see why some would have picked that, because the first three seasons were hard to top. 6.) Riley and the Initiative - I thought that was one of the more interesting things about season four. 7.) Willow becomes gay - I didn't the way it was handled, but it didn't kill the show for me. 8.) Day One - Welcome to the Hellmouth was an awesome beginning to the series. But like with Angel, I don't think one episode is enough to say a show has jumped. 9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike) - One of the many lowlights for me in season six, but that year had been on a downward spiral way before this happened. 10.) Death (Buffy) - Had they cut the series off here with Buffy's swan dive, I would have been more inclined towards saying the show never jumped.

08-29-2005, 12:44 PM	#14
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	I would go with ConCor too, but then everytime I realize when I am in the middle of S5 that S4 at least had the advantage of feeling like Angel. The dark sets, the Hyperion, the full cast (Cordelia, even when evil better than no Cordelia at all, Lilah and Connor, yeah I liked him). And as DamnSkippy already stated if they had a real redemption story in S5 for the characters I wouldn't have been happy about ConCor but would at least be more forgving. So in the end it would be the joining of W&H .. though I found that story arc intriguing at first thought.