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Old 05-07-2015, 12:43 PM   #1
DamnSkippy
 
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Grimm

There are spoilers here in case you're not caught up on the show.

We're on season 4 now and I can't help seeing the similarities to Angel S4. Juliette, one might say the female lead, is "possessed" by a Wesen in many ways similar to how Cordy became "possessed" by a demon. Both women sacrificed themselves in order to help their male "heroes" continue their missions.

Once possessed, Juliette becomes evil. I don't really have to point out the similarities to Cordy there even though the mechanisms are different. And you have Nick beginning to give up on Juliette just as Angel did even though both of them know/knew why their female counterparts were acting evil.

I wonder if Greenwalt is trying to show how he would have handled Angel S4 if he had been there. Granted, the actress playing Juliette is not pregnant (although they are throwing a pregnancy curve in there with Adalind), so that's not something the writers have to contend with (oh the woes of having a pregnant actresss *sigh*). But, perhaps, he's showing even without a pregnant actress, you could make her evil and not kill her. Perhaps there is still redemption for Juliette.

I am crossing my fingers that that is the case. I know there's a lot of Juliette hate out there. I wasn't a huge fan of her most of the show, but I've grown to like her and Nick together. If she's leaving the show (which I haven't heard anything about) and this is their way of giving her an exit (by killing her evil ass), I will be sooooooooooo disappointed in Greenie.
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Old 05-09-2015, 02:02 PM   #2
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There are spoilers here in case you're not caught up on the show.
Some now for the latest episode.

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I am crossing my fingers that that is the case. I know there's a lot of Juliette hate out there. I wasn't a huge fan of her most of the show, but I've grown to like her and Nick together. If she's leaving the show (which I haven't heard anything about) and this is their way of giving her an exit (by killing her evil ass), I will be sooooooooooo disappointed in Greenie.
Full disclosure: I am not a Juliette hater, but I'm also not her #1 fan. That said, when the whole Juliette the hexenbieste arc started, I thought we were in for some good times. I was wrong.

Given Friday's events, I think there's about a -294% chance Juliette's going back to the good guys. I mean, it's TV and not a documentary so they can do whatever they want, but it's one thing to sleep with your bestie's son while possessed by a higher power thingie. It's a whole other deal to get your ex-fiance's mother killed.

They've basically swapped Adalind and Juliette, so to me, it seems more likely there's redemption ahead for Adalind than Juliette.

Anyway, the way the arc has gone so far, I have to think Bitsie Tulloch either wants a reduced role (Juliette the Royal) or off the show completely. Whichever it is, it's not been my favorite storyline. But it's still magnitudes of order better than the crap hand Angel dealt Cordelia.
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:12 PM   #3
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There's no redemption for Juliette at this point. She burned the grimbego, forced/tried to force Nick to shoot Monroe and she just participated in killing Nick's mother. No to mention the poor innocent neighbors that the Royals killed to set the trap for Kelly.

Yeah, she needs to die.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:01 PM   #4
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There's no redemption for Juliette at this point. She burned the grimbego, forced/tried to force Nick to shoot Monroe and she just participated in killing Nick's mother. No to mention the poor innocent neighbors that the Royals killed to set the trap for Kelly.

Yeah, she needs to die.
The only argument to the contrary for me is that it's not really Juliette doing all those things, just like it wasn't really Cordy. At least that's the way I interpret her behavior - the beast within is in control and not Juliette. So I would feel like a hypocrite if I thought Juliette couldn't be redeemed if she was no longer a hexenbeist. But, after the latest episode and the previews, I would gather Juliette's death is about 99% assured or she'll make a new home with the royals. If Adalind is "redeemed" and they pair her with Nick because of the baby or whatever, I'm not going to be a happy camper either. Either way, I think I'm just going to hope Nick stays single for awhile.

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Old 05-10-2015, 06:16 AM   #5
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The only argument to the contrary for me is that it's not really Juliette doing all those things, just like it wasn't really Cordy. At least that's the way I interpret her behavior - the beast within is in control and not Juliette. So I would feel like a hypocrite if I thought Juliette couldn't be redeemed if she was no longer a hexenbeist. But, after the latest episode and the previews, I would gather Juliette's death is about 99% assured or she'll make a new home with the royals. If Adalind is "redeemed" and they pair her with Nick because of the baby or whatever, I'm not going to be a happy camper either. Either way, I think I'm just going to hope Nick stays single for awhile.
I don't believe that's the way Juliette has been presented at all. Renard was possessed and not in control. Juliette is in Control. There's no alternate personality in charge while Juliette is suffering memory loss/time gaps. Every action she's taken has been deliberate. She was pissed after seeing Adiland/Nick and burned down the Traler. She got pissed off over her friends trying to "cure" her because (as she told Nick) she likes having these powers and forced Nick to turn his gun on Monroe.

She then plotted and planned Kelly's death with the Royals all while having memories of Nick. Juliiette is the only personality and that's been true to all Hexenbeist. Adiland didn't change personality after she lost her Hexenbeist and she didn't get a new one after she got a different hexenbeist. Adiland is still the same selfish self-serving, arrogant evil person she always was.

ETA: I don't see much connection between Cordy and Juliette but if the situation were the same and Cordy killed someone Angel loved and forced Gunn to hurt Fred, I'd say the same thing about Cordy...there is no redemption.for that.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:56 AM   #6
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I don't believe that's the way Juliette has been presented at all. Renard was possessed and not in control. Juliette is in Control. There's no alternate personality in charge while Juliette is suffering memory loss/time gaps. Every action she's taken has been deliberate. She was pissed after seeing Adiland/Nick and burned down the Traler. She got pissed off over her friends trying to "cure" her because (as she told Nick) she likes having these powers and forced Nick to turn his gun on Monroe.

She then plotted and planned Kelly's death with the Royals all while having memories of Nick. Juliiette is the only personality and that's been true to all Hexenbeist. Adiland didn't change personality after she lost her Hexenbeist and she didn't get a new one after she got a different hexenbeist. Adiland is still the same selfish self-serving, arrogant evil person she always was.
I disagree. Adalind, IMO, was nicer when she wasn't a hexenbeist. But that may be because she knew she had no power and couldn't defend herself like she is now.

But you can't really compare Adalind and Juliette since Adalind was born one and Juliette had the "beast" put in her. But your argument about Adalind confirms what I am saying. The real Juliette was not a self-serving, arrogant evil person. The non-hexenbeist Juliette would never do any of these things she's doing no matter how jealous or angry she was. Juliette would be hurt and angry about the baby and she might kick Nick out but she would never have burned the trailer or tried to kill Adalind. That's the beast doing what a beast would do with its anger and jealousy. That's the beast in Control, not the real Juliette.

I believe it's been stated in dialogue that Juliette would be the most dangerous hexenbeist ever because of how she became one and that the wesen part of her is making her behave this way. When she has flashes about her and Nick and how happy they were, for me that's the real Juliette trying to regain some control. But, then, the wesen rears its head and in an instant her whole demeanor changes.

However, this is the fandom split argument and we'll never agree on this unless the producers/writers decide to explain the whole mess.

Is this the Evil Cordy! debate or the Angelus/Angel soul! one? I can't tell.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:01 AM   #7
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ETA: I don't see much connection between Cordy and Juliette but if the situation were the same and Cordy killed someone Angel loved and forced Gunn to hurt Fred, I'd say the same thing about Cordy...there is no redemption.for that.
Isn't that Angelus/Angel's story? Angelus killed tons of people that were beloved. But redemption was what Angel was all about. Did you not think Angel deserved or would ever achieve redemption?
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Old 05-11-2015, 07:21 PM   #8
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LOL Skippy, have you been listening in on my conversations with Landrews, psychofilly and Little Heaven? We've been talking about this being exactly like Cordy's storyline, only better. Like Greenie IS showing them how it's done.

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Isn't that Angelus/Angel's story? Angelus killed tons of people that were beloved. But redemption was what Angel was all about. Did you not think Angel deserved or would ever achieve redemption?
I was thinking the same thing about this being the Angelus storyline. Juliette has to find a way back now. And even tho Morrigan has a point and J has committed some unforgivable sins, I think redemption will have to play out for her next season.

Y'all don't forget to use the spoiler font! I didn't know about >>> Nick's mom <<<
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:47 PM   #9
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LOL Skippy, have you been listening in on my conversations with Landrews, psychofilly and Little Heaven? We've been talking about this being exactly like Cordy's storyline, only better. Like Greenie IS showing them how it's done.
I've been thinking it all season! It's been so frustrating not talking about it with anyone.


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I was thinking the same thing about this being the Angelus storyline. Juliette has to find a way back now. And even tho Morrigan has a point and J has committed some unforgivable sins, I think redemption will have to play out for her next season.
I really wasn't thinking in terms of Angelus/Angel until this thread, but it works for both him and Evil Cordy!/Cordelia. Cordy just never got the redemption arc she should have gotten. One ep wasn't enough.

Spoiler:>>>Is she dead or not? I'm thinking the arrows were maybe tinged with the fake death potion to make the hexenbeist leave. But she did look pretty much gone for. I'm hoping she's not dead because they did show us a huge glimpse of her remorse and I do want to see her redemption on screen. Wouldn't it be nice to see a female get her redemption arc?<<<
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Old 05-16-2015, 08:57 PM   #10
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Spoiler:>>>Is she dead or not? I'm thinking the arrows were maybe tinged with the fake death potion to make the hexenbeist leave. But she did look pretty much gone for. I'm hoping she's not dead because they did show us a huge glimpse of her remorse and I do want to see her redemption on screen. Wouldn't it be nice to see a female get her redemption arc?<<<
Could be, but ---> blood from the mouth is never a good sign, and Theresa wasn't in on the fake Jack the Ripper thing. I still think Adalind will get what Juliette didn't.<---
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Old 05-23-2015, 09:08 PM   #11
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Could be, but ---> blood from the mouth is never a good sign, and Theresa wasn't in on the fake Jack the Ripper thing. I still think Adalind will get what Juliette didn't.<---
Your last point would tick me off if it happened, if only bc Adalind is being whitewashed and Juliet was an unwilling participant in the events leading up to her fate. (Before she was changed, I mean.)

It would give Nick something to fight for -- but I yawn even saying it. I hope ---> Juliet does get a second chance, but as you say, blood from the mouth does suggest otherwise <---
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Old 05-24-2015, 09:11 PM   #12
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It would give Nick something to fight for -- but I yawn even saying it. I hope ---> Juliet does get a second chance, but as you say, blood from the mouth does suggest otherwise <---
Eh, --> FBI's rushing in, ambulance shows up in the nick of time (see what I did there?) and behold, Juliette's still hanging around being... something. Maybe she does want back in, but trying to kill Nick is a strange way to go about showing it.

Anyway, I've watched enough TV to know what not seeing the corpse in a season finale usually means.
<--- Don't give up hope just yet.
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:31 AM   #13
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You know, I was thinking of Juliette in terms of Cordy and never really thought of her as Angelus/Angel. Angel told us time and again that the line between human and demon was blurry sometimes.

While I think Juliette went too far in Nick's eyes to ever be a fiance again, I keep thinking that if she's dead, Someone will bring her back ala Buffy somehow changed or she won't die. Then we either get Juliette as the big bad, possibly dividing Renard's loyalty or Juliette getting her redemption slowly but surely.

I really don't see the wesen as "demons" possessing the humans. They are a supernatural extension of who they are. We know Juliette can be selfless and good, but everyone has a flip side and now that she has a powerful wesen side I sort of feel like it is magnifying what is already there. She may get overwhelmed by her feelings being fed all that power, but the hexenbeast is not something else inside her. It's a dark extension of who she is. And she is lashing out based directly on how she feels at any given moment (Especially her anger and betrayal). The power is definitely made her unstable.

I think her beating up Nick was a direct visual example of that. She came back because she felt real remorse for what she had done, and she still loved Nick despite her anger- but boy is she still angry. Instead of holding it in though, she now directly lashes out and she has no self control any more. Trubel had to shoot her.

I dunno. I'm still processing the whole thing.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:18 PM   #14
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I really don't see the wesen as "demons" possessing the humans. They are a supernatural extension of who they are. We know Juliette can be selfless and good, but everyone has a flip side and now that she has a powerful wesen side I sort of feel like it is magnifying what is already there.
I agree a natural born wesen isn't possessed by "demons" and it's just an extension of their being, but they have emphasized that Juliette is different in that she wasn't born one. Plus, since we've seen the hexenbiest leave and "repossess" Adalind, I get the feeling that at least in the case of Juliet it is more a possession than something natural. But I do agree that the beast does take what's already a part of her and magnifies it. It seems, though, that it appears to magnify the bad parts and tries to suppress the good. She looks to me like when she's feeling remorse it gets flicked off quickly when the evil side emerges.
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Old 12-13-2015, 03:35 PM   #15
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When we didn't see the body, I assumed she was coming back. Greenwalt insists Juliette is dead, so I'm curious to see how this is going to work out. Hopefully it will come to more than 'it depends on your definition of dead'.
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