ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark - Page 3

QueenC4707 · 09-02-2005, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.

You know, I just finished re-watching Buffy S6 after rewatching it all the way thru on DVDs from S1 (got the family hooked :/). The more I rewatch the later seasons of BtVS and AtS the more I realize how impossible it must've been for writers to have any remotely original ideas. How many redemption plots can they do already? How many "good guy goes evil" plots? I bag on shows a lot for ripping off other shows, but ripping off yourself (more than once!) reaches a whole new level of sad.

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As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared.

Word. I was having an interesting convo with my friend, who, while he enjoys the character of Spike, felt that having him come on Angel in the 5th season kind of cheapened his redemption. Which I also agree with, to an extent. As much as I love Spike, I didn't really see him "fitting" as a regular on AtS (although I have no objection to Xover appearances like "In the Dark.") By writing off Cordy, a key character and the only original cast member left other than Angel, migration of two Buffy characters (Spike and Harmony), and starting up again with the Xovers, I can see why some fans referred to S5 as "Buffy lite."

Gabriella · 09-02-2005, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

For me Buffy jumped when she came back in season six. In hidsight, Angel jumped at Birthday, though at the time I would have said the last two minutes of Apocalypse Nowish.

Agreed. Cordy - as much as I did, do and always will love her was never *exactly* the same again, until maybe YW. As for Buffy, the poor thing was ripped out of heaven. Yeesh. It just went downhill from there.

silveragent · 09-02-2005, 05:06 AM

QueenC -- there were many ideas the writers could have pursued on both shows had they not constantly robbed prior seasons and been willing to explore human aspects of their characters. The problem was they were stuck in the same creative rut: Joss mandated they copy "go evil and get redeemed" over and over again.

califi · 09-02-2005, 09:37 AM

AtS- Darla pregnant.

BtVS - difficult. Stopped watching it thru S4, but enjoyed a lot of S5, so although I found the odd ep I did see of S4 imo crap, glad S5 was around...so after the Gift, I'd say.

Mr.Brightside · 09-02-2005, 10:28 AM

Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor.

DamnSkippy · 09-02-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor.

Well, no. She *only* cared *because* she shared a soul with Connor. She knew she'd kill the kid the moment she lost that soul connection.

califi · 09-02-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor.

I meant the fact she came back pregnant in the first place. Crap arc. With a character like Darla, they could have gone with any other arc and it would have been great - As I've said on countless occasions, AtS, imo was not a place for kids of any kind (unless as a saved victim

) To me, when Darla and her bun came in the door, that was the beginning of the end.

Mr.Brightside · 09-02-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

Well, no. She *only* cared *because* she shared a soul with Connor. She knew she'd kill the kid the moment she lost that soul connection.

I know, but it was actually great seeing Darla care for something. She never did in the past.

Mr.Brightside · 09-02-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by califi

I meant the fact she came back pregnant in the first place. Crap arc. With a character like Darla, they could have gone with any other arc and it would have been great - As I've said on countless occasions, AtS, imo was not a place for kids of any kind (unless as a saved victim

) To me, when Darla and her bun came in the door, that was the beginning of the end.

Well, I thought it would be interesting to find out what was really in Darla. Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla

. But, when we found out that it was human. I know everyone said it was the end. But, what I don't understand. What is Connor? We all know he has some Demon in him.

psychofilly · 09-02-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Well, I thought it would be interesting to find out what was really in Darla. Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla

. But, when we found out that it was human. I know everyone said it was the end. But, what I don't understand. What is Connor? We all know he has some Demon in him.

So basically Angel and Darla created the first Male Slayer, and maybe, just maybe if they had explored that aspect, I might have been interested. I'm not one of those that had a problem with Darla getting pregnant. I thought it was compelling, but Connor was mishandled to the point that they had to kill him off to make him a bearable character.

And telling everyone here what they were interested in... not the best idea. You don't really know what other folks are thinking.

rolandro · 09-02-2005, 11:10 AM

Well, it was more like a bunch of sharks - one that ends in that slo-mo crash like they used to show Eval Keneval making as he missed the ramp on his motorcycle after jumping a bunch of school buses - just broken legs, pelvis, spine. To let the preeminent summer upper, Cordelia Chase call it, it resulted in "Mystical comas. You know, if you can stand the horror of a higher power hijacking your mind and body so it can give birth to itself? Really recommend em!" Because that was the point, apparently, of Darla's pregnancy. The point, if you read between the lines of what Skip says in S5, is that it took eons of planning by Jasmine to put together the exact crew of basically good guys with the heart, brains, mystical connections (right down to the blood type), fighting skill and motivation to kill her.

My take on all those intersecting lines of chance bullshit.

Mr.Brightside · 09-02-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

So basically Angel and Darla created the first Male Slayer, and maybe, just maybe if they had explored that aspect, I might have been interested. I'm not one of those that had a problem with Darla getting pregnant. I thought it was compelling, but Connor was mishandled to the point that they had to kill him off to make him a bearable character.

And telling everyone here what they were interested in... not the best idea. You don't really know what other folks are thinking.

Yea, I agree Connor was mishandled. I thought he was a Character that could be explored at the end of Season 3. But they kept making him annoying at times, so you couldn't like his character at all.

If you read my post again, I was directly saying everyone here is interested. Sorry if it sound like it did

.

psychofilly · 09-02-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolandro

Because that was the point ,apparently, of Darla's pregnancy. The point, if you read between the lines of what Skip says in S5, is that it took eons of planning by Jasmine to put together the exact crew of basically good guys with the heart, brains, mystical connections (right down to the blood type), fighting skill and motivation to kill her.

My take on all those intersecting lines of chance bullshit.

Heh, I never really thought of it that way, but it is kind of funny that a being with the wherewithall and foresite to manipulate this group into a position to give birth to her, she'd be able to predict they'd turn on her too. A smart god would have killed off the FG, because they were the only ones in a position to figure out the Connor/Cordy blood connection.

I guess my problem with the show as a whole is that I'd rather have seen a crew that outwitted their opponents instead of constantly being bailed out by blind luck or heavenly intervention. There was a time when Angel was smart and they showed it, where Cordy was a good observer and quick on her feet, and Wes wouldn't have wallowed in self pity.

And in the end, while I liked the idea of taking down the Circle of the Black Thorne and Angel playing a shadow game with W&H the whole time, that wasn't set up in the episodes until the very end when they basically said, "Surprise, this is what's been happening off screen!"

rolandro · 09-02-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

I guess my problem with the show as a whole is that I'd rather have seen a crew that outwitted their opponents instead of constantly being bailed out by blind luck or heavenly intervention. There was a time when Angel was smart and they showed it, where Cordy was a good observer and quick on her feet, and Wes wouldn't have wallowed in self pity.

Which is why I love Wes' Judas turn in S3 - it came from character and a twist on the whole 'ancient scroll' routine they used. It hurt to watch Wes go down that road, but it made sense. It also helped that AD is just the most underrated television actor of all time - and I just wish that the head jerk had the wherewithal to keep the 'deterioration of the family' of Angel investigators in character like that. But no, the crew deteriorated, got dumber and dumber and just plain manipulated by plotwonk from there on out. The writers used Connor to cripple Angel in mind and heart, making it hard for him to see reality, I guess. The one thing that got easier though was portal-jumping. S3 saw the rise of the portal bus stop, where just about anybody with pocket change - I'm thinking Groo - could leap dimensions to their heart's content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

And in the end, while I liked the idea of taking down the Circle of the Black Thorne and Angel playing a shadow game with W&H the whole time, that wasn't set up in the episodes until the very end when they basically said, "Surprise, this is what's been happening off screen!"

Total agreement. Oh, and note to David Fury: You had NO IDEA about the kiss when you (or Joss) wrote that scene in Birthday and YOU KNOW IT. Come clean - The Black Thorn idea has 'slapped together over Christmas' tattooed all over it. Just like the plot of YW, the final 2 eps were really pretty pointless in their execution. Sort of an 'Operation Hellmouth Freedom' - to use a cultural reference.

califi · 09-02-2005, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla

.

You're missing what I actually said, lol. NOT interested in pregnant Darla. Full stop.

09-02-2005, 09:37 AM	#34
califi Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Total PissedOff Land -first right. Posts: 1,930	AtS- Darla pregnant. BtVS - difficult. Stopped watching it thru S4, but enjoyed a lot of S5, so although I found the odd ep I did see of S4 imo crap, glad S5 was around...so after the Gift, I'd say. __________________ "Oh, Cordeeeeelia, how I feeeeel ya!" GoTeam C/A

09-02-2005, 10:28 AM	#35
Mr.Brightside Queen Charisma... Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quor Toth a Hell DiMeNsIon Posts: 892	Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor. __________________ ~Charisma is my Wife, did ya know~ "I grow up in Quor Toth....A Hell Dimension" "Full of all sorts of things that you can't even imagine" Last edited by Mr.Brightside; 09-02-2005 at 10:30 AM.

09-02-2005, 11:10 AM	#41
rolandro Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 909	Well, it was more like a bunch of sharks - one that ends in that slo-mo crash like they used to show Eval Keneval making as he missed the ramp on his motorcycle after jumping a bunch of school buses - just broken legs, pelvis, spine. To let the preeminent summer upper, Cordelia Chase call it, it resulted in "Mystical comas. You know, if you can stand the horror of a higher power hijacking your mind and body so it can give birth to itself? Really recommend em!" Because that was the point, apparently, of Darla's pregnancy. The point, if you read between the lines of what Skip says in S5, is that it took eons of planning by Jasmine to put together the exact crew of basically good guys with the heart, brains, mystical connections (right down to the blood type), fighting skill and motivation to kill her. My take on all those intersecting lines of chance bullshit. Last edited by rolandro; 09-02-2005 at 12:09 PM.

09-02-2005, 05:06 AM	#33
silveragent Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,132	QueenC -- there were many ideas the writers could have pursued on both shows had they not constantly robbed prior seasons and been willing to explore human aspects of their characters. The problem was they were stuck in the same creative rut: Joss mandated they copy "go evil and get redeemed" over and over again.