Angel ranked among the worst endings ever

[jerry]

I thought the AtS finale was actually very good. I didn't like that Cordy wasn't there, of course, but I thought Wes got the ending he needed to get, given the development of the character.And I liked the ending, and what it said about Angel's battle (that it won't ever end, but that fighting it is an end unto itself). Considering how much else Joss and ME had messed up, I thought they did the ending pretty well.

[jerkstore]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Well, they were trying to get a point across. I believe some of the crew members said that the finale symbolised how the 'Fight for good never ends', thus the gang standing behind the Hyperion, soaking wet in rain, waiting to fight again.

I didn't get that point. All I saw was the remnants of the Fang Gang throwing away their lives (and incidentally, unleashing a demonic army on LA) for nothing.

[bigbird811]

^You have to see reeeaaaallllly way past the original concept to see the point. It's a stark contrast to their promise of 'redemption and Shanshu' that they gave us in the end of the first season, and then periodically through the rest of the series.

[Morrigan]

Ironcially, that was the big complaint with The Soprano's ending, that life just goes on, no big change or development for the characters (particularly Tony).

[Dannyblue]

Originally Posted by Luna

So the Buffy ending was better ´cause Xander and Willow were still alive.

I didn't think so. Yeah, all of the original characters were still there. But I didn't give two craps about them. They could've all died in the finale and, while I would've felt a little bad (due to nostalgia more than anything else) I wouldn't have cared all that much. In fact, to this very day, the only original character I've been able to pull together even a fraction of my old love for is Xander. I wasn't sure why until I realized that, of all the original characters, he was the one who'd acted the least like a bitter and/or empty shell of his former self in season 7. Oh, he had his moments. But he wasn't nearly as damaged in my mind by the last season as the other characters were. (Mostly because the writers ignored him.)

Plus, Buffy's so-called happy ending felt so...blah. After watching the empty, bitter shell that was Buffy throughout seasons six and seven, watching her stomp around like she was the only one who mattered because she was The Slayer, seeing her get people killed and maimed left and right and not really seem to care, I was supposed to suddenly feel all warm and fuzzy inside because she got to walk off into the sunset and have a normal, happy life?

Didn't quite happen.

On the other hand, what I remember about the end of AtS was that I felt so proud of everyone, for some strange reason. Any bitterness I felt about anything else that had happened on the show didn't seem to matter in that hour. And, considering how pretty sure I was they were all going to die, I found the ending strangely uplifting and moving. Apparently, I'm a big sap for the whole, "Keep on fighting no matter what," thing.

[bigbird811]

Yeah, but still, after all he's gone through, don't you think Angel also deserved to walk off into the sunset? (and all the other members of the Fang Gang who worked alongside him?) Angel stood up for his own and so did the others, but family support stomped very low to the ground during the fifth season. Angel could've used his old comrades' companionship and support during his big fight. All he got was a battered old friend (who would die in about twenty minutes, as Illyria stated), a Godking who was responsible for another friend's death, and, of course, his most hated adversary, Spike. Although I thought the finale was 'okay', I just hated that JW left Angel nearly friendless in the end.

Having Buffy's friends there didn't necessarily make the finale 'great', I agree, and I though I liked it, I don't love it, but it was still that: Buffy had her friends with her till the end, and they helped her and supported her no matter what. It's that concept that I like, and which they failed to give Angel.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Having Buffy's friends there didn't necessarily make the finale 'great', I agree, and I though I liked it, I don't love it, but it was still that: Buffy had her friends with her till the end, and they helped her and supported her no matter what. It's that concept that I like, and which they failed to give Angel.

It's been said, and I think it was attributed to Whedon or one of ME but it could have just been some meta I read, that the difference between BtVS and Ats was that BtVS was about gaining and keeping friends and family and Ats was supposed to be about losing them all. It was more likely a meta discussion because I can't imagine JW planned it that way. It sounds more like "well this is how it turned out so let's just say that's the way it was supposed to be in the first place" idea to justify the crappy endings.

[bigbird811]

Weird, I thought it was the other way around Now seriously, that couldn't have been planned. Season one, the last half of season two, and the first part of season three was all about giving Angel friends and family--you can't turn around and say 'It's all about losing friends' after all of that. They never said that when they first started the show, did they?

(And besides, leaving Angel all alone for the entirety of the show would've knocked the ratings down anyway. The lone character couldn't carry the show; just like without the Scoobies, BtVS wouldn't have gone on as long as it did)

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

It's been said, and I think it was attributed to Whedon or one of ME but it could have just been some meta I read, that the difference between BtVS and Ats was that BtVS was about gaining and keeping friends and family and Ats was supposed to be about losing them all. It was more likely a meta discussion because I can't imagine JW planned it that way. It sounds more like "well this is how it turned out so let's just say that's the way it was supposed to be in the first place" idea to justify the crappy endings.

I distinctly remember Little Joe saying that the end of AtS was intended to make the fans hurt because the WB had dissed him, personally, by canceling the show. Nasty, childish and unprofessional, yes, but also par for that particular course.

[bigbird811]

But I don't get it. How would making us hurt achieve anything with the WB? The show was ending anyway; how would the fans have affected anything?

[samsmom]

Little Joe doesn't need a reason for doing what he does. He's spiteful enough to share the hurt.

The ending always seemed petty and deliberately unclear to me so it wouldn't surprise me that it was his big FU to the network and the fans that stopped tuning in.

[bigbird811]

If he had given us something to cheer about in s5, I guess fans would've tuned in. He completely dumbed characters, and the storyline would've been good (I think it's pretty conflict-y when heroes find themselves walking the thin line between good and evil) if only they hadn't watered it down with newbies like Eve, that scientist guy whose name I don't care to recall and, of course, the blue wonder her/himself, Illyria (Even if I like her, I think it was a bad idea to bring her in at that point in the show). Plus, episodes like 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco' (my brother and I still cringe when we think of that episode) and 'Life of the Party'. Those didn't help at all. (I'll refrain from spouting hate about The Girl in Question, just to be civilized) Joss Whedon might've tried to make his show better, I guess. But that still doesn't change anything.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Plus, episodes like 'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco' (my brother and I still cringe when we think of that episode) and 'Life of the Party'. Those didn't help at all. (I'll refrain from spouting hate about The Girl in Question, just to be civilized) Joss Whedon might've tried to make his show better, I guess. But that still doesn't change anything.

I definitely agree about Life of the Party and TGIQ but I may be one of the few who enjoyed "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco." I was actually saying hooray when that show aired because it was the first (and one of the few of S5) that *felt* like the Ats I used to love. First, it actually featured the star of the show, Angel, which was rare for S5. And finally Angel was out in the street trying to help the helpless instead of making love to his boardroom table. He was dark and broody as was the whole episode. Hell, he even vamped and smelled blood from a distance like the good ol' days. The Mexican fighting theme could have been better, but the episode on whole made me feel like like I was watching Ats for the first time during that horrid season.

And I don't think Joss tried to make the show "better." He tried to make the show what the network wanted regardless of how that effected characters or storyline consistency just to keep it on the air. He just wanted *not* to have another one of his shows (and, thus, his source of income and ego) canceled.

[bigbird811]

I did like the fact that Angel went back to his roots for awhile, but I guess I was moping about the horrid storyline A tragedy about a band of Mexican Fighting Brothers? Really?

[jerkstore]

I liked the Mexican wresting fighting brothers and I agree that it felt like an ATS episode unlike most of S4 and S5.

I'm not surprised Little Joe deliberately screwed the audience out of petty spite, it seems in character. It's probably why he ended Lorne's story with an out of character premeditated murder.

re: Xander I've hated him since OMWF when he knowingly summoned a demon to Sunnydale for kicks, got innocents murdered and looked a little sheepish. He belongs in jail for Manslaugher at the very least.

The ending always seemed petty and deliberately unclear to me so it wouldn't surprise me that it was his big FU to the network and the fans that stopped tuning in.

So how the hell is sticking it to the few remaining loyal fans constitute an FU to the ex-fans who weren't watching the big FU in the first place? Insane Troll Logic at it's finest.