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Old 03-11-2005, 10:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoJo
Considering the above, am I the only one who suspects that the "Cordelia" in YW was either a fake or brainwashed by the SP? Let's see, Angel's about to quit Evil, Inc. then "Cordy" just happens to wake up, talk him into staying on, and as a bonus, takes out the one guy who left W&H. H'm, something doesn't sound kosher to me.
I'm not sure, I think Terry (SamIAm) is convinced that Cordy never game back from the HR. Everything after S3 Cordy is in same way a fake. Although, I could be wrong about his take on YW!Cordy.

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Old 03-11-2005, 11:23 AM   #47
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Yes, it has some logic, but we saw YWCordy giving Angel the vision that made him know who were his enemies and that started the whole events that lead to Not Fade Away and the destruction (even if it wasn't definitive) of W&H.

So, that last part is the one who doesn't fit if YWCordy was not the real Cordy.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:59 AM   #48
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Early in YW, Cordy hugs Angel and says "Yeah, it's me." It was affectionate, and intended to be taken at face value. The real Cordy was back - granted a temporary pass in this dimension to help Mr. Attention Deficit Action Hero experience his Epiphany (let's hear it, people!) ONE. . . MORE. . . TIME. At the end of YW, Cordy says "this isn't me anymore" - emphasis mine. I think those two lines hook up, the latter closing the temporal loop as Cordy prepares to return to the HRs. [Sidenote: CC wasn't happy with the original story as it had been presented - the screenplay hadn't yet been written - and made ME sweat a bit about both money and storyline before she accepted the deal to reprise Cordy. So YW was written in part to satisfy CC. I doubt she'd be satisfied coming back to play another version of fake Cordy. Plus, YW was ME's one shot at rehabilitating Cordy's character - her demise being a subject they took a great deal of heat for, not just from folks like us, but from fans of the show in general.]

In the second to last episode, we learn that Cordy passed the visions (or 'a' vision) on to Angel. Having seen both episodes again recently, I believe the subtext here is that Angel - through his relationship with Cordelia and others - had become humanized to the point that he could handle the visions without going insane (as was the case in 'Birthday.')

There are tons of things wrong with YW - like, what EXACTLY was supposed to kill Angel, the little Texan with his sword? The big Nasty? It wasn't as if Lindsay was unprepared for them. He was waiting for Cordy and Angel to arrive and seals them in the room with him. THEN he tosses Angel across the room so we can break for commercial, a move that commits him to fighting Angel himself and means he can't run to the control panel and let the BN loose. . . however that was supposed to happen (was the lid supposed to pop off, were the panels supposed to slide down, what? Curious repeat viewers demand to know!)

It's obvious that the Visions passing idea was tacked on as an opportunistic afterthought much later in the season - because the coma ending vision Cordy has is all about Lindsay and his tatoos and the big fight downstairs. There is no vision of a C/A kiss and no vision of the sexually suggestive light passing between them.

Last edited by rolandro; 03-11-2005 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:30 PM   #49
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Ric, in the commentary to YW on the DVD, Fury says that tons of people have asked why the vision passing (blue light) wasn't seen in YW and his answer was, "Duh! We didn't want to give it away." That smells supsiciously like back peddling to me, but it also makes sense so who knows for sure.

As far as what was supposed to kill Angel, I understood that the tentacle monster in the big vat of doom was specifically designed by the SPs to take Angel out should he fail to stay in line. Lindsey had already set the release of the monster in motion before Angel and Cordy got there with the big, pretty crystal. However, they also made it seem that Cordy pushing the wrong buttons is what actually released the lid, so maybe Lindsey thought it would be a piece of cake to knock Angel out long enough to finish what he started. Or, ya know, he's just a moron.
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrigan
I'm not sure, I think Terry (SamIAm) is convinced that Cordy never game back from the HR. Everything after S3 Cordy is in same way a fake. Although, I could be wrong about his take on YW!Cordy.

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Er, well, if everyone promises not to get too worked up...

I think in YW, ComaCordy was killed by the Senior Partners so they could whip up their own version of Cordy (as they did with Lilah and Holland before her) to convince Angel to stay with W&H. They basically used Cordy as their dupe in death, and the PTB jumped on that train when the "one-time vision" was suddenly added onto the kiss in whatever episode it was revealed that Whedon needed another deus-ex-machina to get out of another idiotic plot.

So basically, YWCordy was a copy created by the Senior Partners, used by them and by the PTB, each to further their own agenda; fate's bitch even in death.

Of course, ignoring what Whedon put on-screen, I think it's a far better story if the last time we ever really saw Cordelia was in "Tomorrow."
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:36 PM   #51
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I think in YW, ComaCordy was killed by the Senior Partners so they could whip up their own version of Cordy (as they did with Lilah and Holland before her) to convince Angel to stay with W&H. . . . I think it's a far better story if the last time we ever really saw Cordelia was in "Tomorrow."
I'll buy that. In fact, I think the last time we saw 100% Cordy was in Birthday. IMO, the demonization was just a slower version of what happened to Fred in AHITW.
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Old 03-11-2005, 04:36 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by DamnSkippy
Ric, in the commentary to YW on the DVD, Fury says that tons of people have asked why the vision passing (blue light) wasn't seen in YW and his answer was, "Duh! We didn't want to give it away." That smells supsiciously like back peddling to me, but it also makes sense so who knows for sure.

As far as what was supposed to kill Angel, I understood that the tentacle monster in the big vat of doom was specifically designed by the SPs to take Angel out should he fail to stay in line. Lindsey had already set the release of the monster in motion before Angel and Cordy got there with the big, pretty crystal. However, they also made it seem that Cordy pushing the wrong buttons is what actually released the lid, so maybe Lindsey thought it would be a piece of cake to knock Angel out long enough to finish what he started. Or, ya know, he's just a moron.
Ah, the old, tried and true 'B' serial cliffhanger. Our Hero Smashes Through The Road Barrier And Plummets Over The Cliff In His Packard Sedan And Dies In A Firery Explosion On The Rocks Below. . . but wait! Next week we get a new version of events as we see him jump out of the drivers seat At The Last Possible Second. That's just dumb. As for Lindsay, the nitwit, I don't care how much muscle juice you picked up in Nepal - you are fighting a being which in normal circumstances would consider you lunch. Speaking of - I had this thought over lunch: Maybe the thing in the vat of doom gave Lindsay superhuman powers. You had to admit - he was kicking Angel's ass while the beast beneath his legs was raising ** phallically ** towards the ceiling. ** And when Cordy sent it sinking back into the floor, the tiny Texan did look rather spent ** didn't he?

Last edited by rolandro; 03-11-2005 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 03-11-2005, 06:09 PM   #53
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lunch: Maybe the thing in the vat of doom gave Lindsay superhuman powers. You had to admit - he was kicking Angel's ass while the beast beneath his legs was raising ** phallically ** towards the ceiling. ** And when Cordy sent it sinking back into the floor, the tiny Texan did look rather spent ** didn't he?
I think the subtext rapidly became text in that ep .

I must say the reason that I love this bb so much is that even though we all have different interpretations and opinions of the characters, we are all free to post our candid opinions even if they are negative and nobody gets hysterical. On so many bb's the merest hint that you don't think Joss is a genius, or that both shows' quality declined precipitiously after Greenwalt left result in a flood of outraged posters and usually the offender is driven off the bb. I definitely prefer the maturity and courtesy here.
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Old 03-11-2005, 06:43 PM   #54
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Ric I think you just gave A/L slashers some tremblings in the nether regions as well as a new plot bunny.
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoJo
I'll buy that. In fact, I think the last time we saw 100% Cordy was in Birthday. IMO, the demonization was just a slower version of what happened to Fred in AHITW.
The comparison to Fred is an interesting one. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but I agree the last time we saw proper Cordy was in Birthday.

Cordy's change happened more slowly and definitely more uneven and oddly, but her alteration starts from that ep.
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:18 AM   #56
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I have too severely disagree with the "Cordy in YW was a fake" theory. That was definately Cordy in the purest form in that episode.

People are talking about how Cordy convinced him to stay with W&H after he was considering quitting, but how quickly some seem to forget that it was all part of a plan to get to the core of the company (Black Thorn) and to eventually deal them a harsh blow that would eclipse anything they could have done outside the company.

Cordy was there, she was there for the man she loved (Angel), and she got her guy back on track, and nobody can take that away from her.

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Old 03-12-2005, 10:13 AM   #57
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The comparison to Fred is an interesting one. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but I agree the last time we saw proper Cordy was in Birthday.
Of course, for my theory to work (I've got a theory!), you'd have to believe that Mr. Genius Whedon would recycle a storyline. Nah, that would never happen.

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Ric I think you just gave A/L slashers some tremblings in the nether regions as well as a new plot bunny.
The hoyay! was the only thing that kept me watching in S5. I was hoping for a VSE where Angel and Spike kiss. It didn't happen, although the handholding scenes in Destiny and AHITW were pretty close and Spike did admit that "They'd been intimate just that once". Hey, if you can have lesbians, why not?

[Fanwank] What if the 'vision' 'Cordy' passed on to Angel in YW was a fake? Just suppose that the SP wanted to jump start their apocolypse. Would it be so hard to believe that they'd sacrifice a few of their minions to accomplish that? Considering that W&H is a multi-dimensional, worldwide organization, I find it hard to believe that all of their agents on earth belonged to one, easily killable, group located in the Greater LA metropolitan area. Sure, Lindsey confirmed the existance and purpose of COBT, but that was after he'd been in the custody of the SP for a while.
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Old 03-12-2005, 12:10 PM   #58
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[Fanwank] What if the 'vision' 'Cordy' passed on to Angel in YW was a fake? Just suppose that the SP wanted to jump start their apocolypse. Would it be so hard to believe that they'd sacrifice a few of their minions to accomplish that? Considering that W&H is a multi-dimensional, worldwide organization, I find it hard to believe that all of their agents on earth belonged to one, easily killable, group located in the Greater LA metropolitan area. Sure, Lindsey confirmed the existance and purpose of COBT, but that was after he'd been in the custody of the SP for a while.
Meh. Good theories one and all, but I think it's far more likely what we saw on screen is what it is. I don't think it's possible for ME/Jasshat to think this critically and plan that type of intricate story much less do it in advance. I picture their story planning going something like, "What should we have Buffy's bitches do today? Hey, pass a donut will ya."
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Old 03-12-2005, 02:15 PM   #59
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Meh. Good theories one and all, but I think it's far more likely what we saw on screen is what it is.
I think you're right Debs. Plus didn't Fury say that Cordy in YW was the real Cordelia, no if, ands, or buts about it. I know I remember reading that somewhere, maybe someone's LJ. It was after YW aired and right after the cancellation that they had one of those meet & greets where you could interact with some of the writers and actors, I know Minear and Fury were there. I remember reading that some fan was mentioning to Fury that Cordy in YW couldn't have been the real Cordy and he said it was. And since he was the one who wrote the episode I tend to believe it.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:11 AM   #60
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Posted by JoJo

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But Cyd, your scenario assumes that Cordelia was a major part of their lives, someone whose absence is keenly felt, whose loss affects them all. Pshaw! Don't you know that Cordy's story was over? Just ask Joss .
But if the characters continued to behave like cardboard cut-outs of their former selves no scenario would make any real difference and S5 was fine just as it was. Someone needed to wake up and smell the coffee - give a shout - a 'what the hell happened' kind of thing. Angel's bubble wrapped brain believing he had to once again do the bazaar to save the day is totally believable, but the original Wes and Gunn characters going along with it without being influenced by magic/whatever isn't.

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I noticed you didn't fit Fred into your scenario. Hee!
Hmmmm, not on purpose. For me the girl's screen time had little impact. Leaving the character out was honestly an over sight. I guess I would send her to W/H with Angel. I think if Fred was told she had to get off the fence and pick a side she would ultimately fall off in Angel's direction.

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Actually, I like your ideas, and I think it could have worked. You could even have put Lindsey and Eve into the mix. Well not Eve, she sucked, but perhaps the well-dressed Hamilton.
I think if Cordelia was back ( the real Cordelia - the truly superior and lovable bitch) for the season, not an episode she would have ripped Eve to streads without breaking a polished nail. And Harmony, the real Cordelia would have given Angel two seconds to choose his balls or his new secretary; then Angel's letter of recommendation for Harmony might have been funny.

Cyd

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