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Old 02-28-2005, 11:05 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodakskip
I've seen way too many fans try to make it a pi**ing contest between Buffy and Angel as to what show was the best. To me it will always be the one Buffyverse since that was the first show and all other stuff that came after is in the same Verse if you will. Thats why I dont consider Buffy people in Angel or Angel people in Buffy as a crossover.
I kinda agree with this. Buffy did come first and Angel is a spinoff. Buffy had three seasons over Angel when it first began and most consider the first three seasons of Buffy to be "classic". And coming off the beloved (puke) B/A storyline, Angel had big shoes to fill in a lot of fans/critics minds. I never thought either show was better than the other. I thought they were pretty much the same. The only reason I liked Angel more than Buffy was because I was a C/Aer.
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Old 03-04-2005, 03:58 PM   #32
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General things:

No inter-group romances. Under Whedon, relationships always end up being little better than placeholders until it's most convenient to drive them apart somehow, with the shock value and accompanying ratings, of course. In the interim, they're boring as hell and have very few positive results to outweigh the negative (look to B/A as a case in point). If they felt that serious about pairing characters up, the most ideal choice would be to use an outsider. But, never more than one at a time.

No Shanshu Prophecy. Every single life that Angelous took was unique, and irreplaceable. The debt that Angel in turn owes can never be repaid. The best that he can hope to expect for his efforts is to be granted peace in the next world, rather than a reward in this one.

When Doyle is killed, the visions go to the grave with him. If the members of AI claim to be detectives, then they can at least try to act more like them.

IWRY should never have happened. No doubts it was a well made episode, but, it did nothing to advance the overall story since the characters wound up back at square one. Plus, it just gave the more rabid B/Aer's more ammo and made it more difficult for ATS to establish it's own identity.

More standalone episodes post season 1 devoted to actually helping the helpless, in addition to the more arc specific ones.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:46 PM   #33
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Good suggestions, Temujin. The inter-group romances turned the show into a "turgid supernatural soap-opera" and this was not a good thing. The show was best, IMO, when it was outwardly focused (i.e. helping the helpless), not focused on the personal lives of the AI crew.

Pylea - just no. The tone was too jarring after the darkness of S2, and it seemed more like a parody of Xena or Hercules than part of the Jossverse. Also, it started the trend of bloating the cast, first introducing Fred and Groo and building up Lorne as a regular. It would have worked better as a single ep - all five get sucked into Pylea, meet the parents, get captured, free the slaves, go home.

Both Gunn and Lorne should have stayed tertiary recurring characters. The show was much better when it only had the core three plus their evil counterparts Holland, Lilah and Lindsey.
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Old 03-06-2005, 07:21 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoJo
Good suggestions, Temujin. The inter-group romances turned the show into a "turgid supernatural soap-opera" and this was not a good thing. The show was best, IMO, when it was outwardly focused (i.e. helping the helpless), not focused on the personal lives of the AI crew.
God yes. So agree. Which is why I love the first 2 seasons so much more than any other.

When Ats started, I got the impression that it wasn't gonna be about romances. And certainly the first 2 seasons stuck with that. I liked the group dynamics as friends far more. If they had to have romances, then have them with peeps outside the group so that they can come and go as necessary. As for Angel the character I always preferred him romantically unencumbered. Basically we already did romance Angel on Btvs. I really liked broody, noir, dark avenger Angel. And dork Angel just made me shudder.

The 2 big things they did on Ats that IMHO started the show off on its slippery slope. Made all the regulars start dating and/or fancying every other regular, and then introduced a baby onto the show
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:21 PM   #35
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Don't bring spike on Angel. Don't get me wrong i love blondie bear but, Angel became a ''co-star'' after that. It's just not right...
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Old 03-10-2005, 09:38 AM   #36
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Don't bring spike on Angel. Don't get me wrong i love blondie bear but, Angel became a ''co-star'' after that. It's just not right...
Dog yes! I too loved me some Blondie Bear, but he never should have become a regular. S5 was the Spike/Fred/Wesley/Illyria show with a side order of Gunn. Angel was reduced to secondary status in his own show! No wonder DB looked so miserable. It must have been quite humiliating for him.

Quote:
And then S4 and S5 happened in which they tried to make Ats into Btvs by bringing over half of the Btvs cast to try and "save it" and only managed, IMO, to destroy it.
Well the show wouldn't have needed 'saving' in the first place if they'd stuck to the original premise (i.e. helping the helpless, fighting the good fight). And as I've said before, despite enjoying Julie Benz's performance in Lullaby , Connor, both baby and teen was a huge, show-killing mistake. If they wanted VK so badly, they should have had him play a street kid who joined AI.

Also, if they hadn't bloated the cast by building up the tertiary characters such as Lorne and Gunn.
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Old 03-10-2005, 02:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodakskip
"What Do You Think They Should Have Done?"
To me it will always be the one Buffyverse since that was the first show and all other stuff that came after is in the same Verse if you will. Thats why I dont consider Buffy people in Angel or Angel people in Buffy as a crossover.
I'm sort of rewatching S1 DVD's and happened to catch Rm w/a Vu and Jane Espenson's commentary - she said something like, 'I look at the two shows as having the same roots but diverging from one another.' not a quote.

I always felt condescended to whenever a Buffy character showed up, the sole exception being Faith. Her story worked well in both universes, I thought. (I always thought she was slumming on Buffy. Faith was really more of an Angel character, IMO.)

My problem with S5 and the W&H takeover premise was that it didn't have very long legs. "Can you do good while working for evil?" Short answer: "No. Not without compromise." That's a fairly obvious situation, one more suited for a single episode or a movie than as a season. It's like in 'You're Welcome,' Cordy wakes up so that she can, what? Put Angel back on track? Thing was, he was back on track when he quit W&H. (I wish in that final scene, when Angel is putting on his coat, Cordy would've said, "no not that coat, your other coat.")

My solution: W&H should've stayed dead in S4, and give him a whole new adversary instead.

Last edited by rolandro; 03-10-2005 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-10-2005, 03:40 PM   #38
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My problem with S5 and the W&H takeover premise was that it didn't have very long legs. "Can you do good while working for evil?" Short answer: "No. Not without compromise."
Exactly! That's why I never understood why we were supposed to be so surprised in Underneath when it turned out that *gasp* W&H offered the firm to Angel to keep him preoccupied whilst they carried out their dastardly plans!

No shit, Sherlock, why else would they give you the firm?

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I always felt condescended to whenever a Buffy character showed up, the sole exception being Faith.
Yep. That's because Faith always was a darker, more adult character who didn't fit into Sunnydale High.
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Old 03-10-2005, 04:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rolandro
(I wish in that final scene, when Angel is putting on his coat, Cordy would've said, "no not that coat, your other coat.")
That would have been a very cool moment.

In my opinion I think Eliza Dushku did her best work with the Faith character on Angel. I loved Five by Five. I did enjoy Sanctuary until Buffy showed up, then it was like Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley didn't exist on their own show. I liked the first episode of season two where Angel goes to see her in prison. That was a nice moment. The three episode arc in season four was also very well done. She fit right in with the Fang Gang. I really liked her putting Connor in his place.

I think I said this on another thread, but I thought Oz had a strange sort of chemistry with Angel, Cordelia, and Doyle in "In the Dark." I was in favor of Seth actually jumping shows.

One of the things that I thought ATS did better than BTVS was character growth. On ATS, we got to see the principal characters Angel, Cordelia, Wesley etc. grow and develop. However, on BTVS the principal characters either stayed the same (Xander, Willow, Giles) or went backward instead of forward (Buffy).

I also agree that Wolfram and Hart should have stayed dead. Joss talked about how Cordelia's storyline had played out, but without Lindsey, Holland, and Lilah, Wolfram and Hart had more than played itself out.

I would have also stayed with the helping the helpless theme of seasons 1-2, and the first part of season 3, rather than the latter half of season 3, and seasons 4-5 where they were the helpless.
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Old 03-10-2005, 06:42 PM   #40
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one of the last things Lindsey said before he left earlier in the series 'you can't win if you play their (W&H) game, you've got to make them play yours' so what does he do in season 5, he plays their game.

i would have scrapped season 4, kept Cordy in the upper realm, and re-written it so she could still interact with the gang, maybe by being able to pass on word of her visions to Conner, making Conner realise what Angel was really doing. they would have kept Cordy as the talking head ala episodes 1-3, then they could have had her come back at the beginning of season 5
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Old 03-10-2005, 07:11 PM   #41
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I didn’t watch the last half of S4 but understand the main reason Angel accepted the offer to take over Wolfram & Hart was in exchange for Connor’s new life and help for Cordelia. Based on that assumption I think Angel’s need to accept the offer is understandable and believable until you look at the big picture.

In S2 Angel’s fear for his friends being exposed to Darla w/ the firm backing her was so great he felt protecting them was worth losing their friendship but in S5 as far as I’m aware he didn’t worry about taking his friends straight into the lion’s den. Not when it got him what he wanted out of the deal. And of course the way the Cordelia character’s absence was handled Angel never confronted anyone about Cordelia’s condition and lack of helping her wake up. Did he? I didn’t watch S5 so only familiar with parts of a few episodes. So once he was there and enjoying the big boss title he didn’t go ballistic because the senior partners weren’t keeping their end of the deal. Why would he assume they’d stick to their deal concerning Connor’s new life?

If those in control thought it important to give the show a 'whole new look' they could have accomplished getting Angel inside Wolfram and Hart without tearing apart everything that came before S5.

I think it would have worked better and been more believable if only Angel had joined the law firm announcing his decision to Wes & Gun but only using Cordelia’s condition as a reason. The mind swipe of the others for Connor’s sake would have only added to their confusion. Wes & Gunn would of course refuse to go along with Angel taking Cordelia inside W & H so he would kidnap her thinking he was giving her a better chance because of W & H’s resources. That would have added fuel to the fire in Wesley & Gunn’s stand against Angel and his new life.

The season could have been about Wesley and Gunn trying to take down Angel and W & H and getting Cordelia back not believing the firm would ever help her and believing Angel’s current beige period gave his last one a pinkish hue. Lorne could have been the guy caught in the middle, wanting to believe Angel but too skeptical to totally support him so he would periodically filter information to Wes & Gunn if only to help keep them safe. I can easily believe Angel would threaten to kill Wes & Gunn and follow through if he believed he was keeping Cordelia safe and helping her. Besides it would make since that by mid season Angel would be beyond the ability to think rationally after being alone inside W & H and constantly fighting his friends. And the firm would be doing its part by keeping hope for Cordelia's recovery dangling in front of Angel.

Spike’s arrival could have worked too. Could you imagine Angel trapped in his deal with W & H and Spike his only ally on the inside? No mind swipe for him, arrived as a ghost and he finds out all of Angel’s secrets and lies and the narrow line Angel is constantly walking to keep the senior partners satisfied but not edge too far into the evil.

Cordelia would wake up at some point, maybe on her own, help from The Powers or maybe even one of the doctors/scientist inadvertently do something that wakes her up, but because of the coma there was no mind swipe so she remembers everything and to make it good she could be aware of Angel's activities when visiting an old friend. She’d stay at W & H refusing to leave Angel behind but working with Wes & Gunn and even Spike if he’s there to save Angel from his own stupid deal.

If the show still ended with S5 they could have still had the big battle to destroy the senior partners and even if all the characters died they would have died together as friends and family instead of a group of people that hardly knew each other anymore. So there, S5 in a nutshell. New look, old traditions.

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Old 03-11-2005, 08:10 AM   #42
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But Cyd, your scenario assumes that Cordelia was a major part of their lives, someone whose absence is keenly felt, whose loss affects them all. Pshaw! Don't you know that Cordy's story was over? Just ask Joss .

I noticed you didn't fit Fred into your scenario. Hee!

Actually, I like your ideas, and I think it could have worked. You could even have put Lindsey and Eve into the mix. Well not Eve, she sucked, but perhaps the well-dressed Hamilton.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:59 AM   #43
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I'm in agreement with Rolandro said earlier that the Wolfram and Hart gimmick just really didn't have long legs. They really had to stretch it to make it last an entire season.

Actually Angel did go ballistic in the first part of "You're Welcome." He had gotten fed up with the fact that they had been negotiating with evil instead of fighting it, and threatened to quit until he got the call that Cordelia was awake.
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:46 AM   #44
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Actually Angel did go ballistic in the first part of "You're Welcome." He had gotten fed up with the fact that they had been negotiating with evil instead of fighting it, and threatened to quit until he got the call that Cordelia was awake.
Considering the above, am I the only one who suspects that the "Cordelia" in YW was either a fake or brainwashed by the SP? Let's see, Angel's about to quit Evil, Inc. then "Cordy" just happens to wake up, talk him into staying on, and as a bonus, takes out the one guy who left W&H. H'm, something doesn't sound kosher to me.
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Old 03-11-2005, 10:14 AM   #45
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Considering the above, am I the only one who suspects that the "Cordelia" in YW was either a fake or brainwashed by the SP? Let's see, Angel's about to quit Evil, Inc. then "Cordy" just happens to wake up, talk him into staying on, and as a bonus, takes out the one guy who left W&H. H'm, something doesn't sound kosher to me.

No, I don't think she was fake or an SP plant. She didn't convince Angel to stay with W&H, she got him back on the path of doing "right" by the helpless again - making him remember what he was fighting for. Angel's the one who decided he could do that and still remain at W&H. And Lindsey wasn't an enemy of W&H, he was Angel's enemy. His plan was to take out Angel and work for the SPs again as the CEO. So, in essence, he was working *for* the SPs at least in his mind.

Plus, the PTB passed the vision through Cordy to him about the SP contacts on earth (Black Thorn?), so I think that's proof that she wasn't working for the SPs.
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