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Old 08-17-2005, 03:35 PM   #481
psychofilly
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I agree with everything you said, Penny. Skip Played Cordy, hard. He played on her sense of guilt and he flattered her, telling her what she always wanted, no needed to hear. That there was a purpose, that she could do more, that she was good enough, but the underlying point is still there. She bought into it and made herself a pawn.

Not saying I would be any smarter...
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Old 08-17-2005, 03:50 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychofilly
...but the underlying point is still there. She bought into it and made herself a pawn.
Well, in that any one of us has the inalienable right to make a really, really bad mistake and then have to live with it, yeah. I would argue that becoming a Pawn of Eeee-veeele wasn't actually the deal she signed up for, but rather the deal she got stuck with -- unlike some people, Angel -- but some may perceive this as a purely semantical distinction. I do think it goes straight to the point of free will, though, and how Cordy's was undermined by someone who deliberately kept information from her. Mileage may vary and probably does.
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Old 08-17-2005, 03:55 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Penny Century
Well, in that any one of us has the inalienable right to make a really, really bad mistake and then have to live with it, yeah. I would argue that becoming a Pawn of Eeee-veeele wasn't actually the deal she signed up for, but rather the deal she got stuck with -- unlike some people, Angel -- but some may perceive this as a purely semantical distinction. I do think it goes straight to the point of free will, though, and how Cordy's was undermined by someone who deliberately kept information from her. Mileage may vary and probably does.
All I ever wanted was to see the fallout, and while I'm happy we got to see her off, I'd have rather seen them deal with their own set up. Feh.
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Old 08-17-2005, 03:59 PM   #484
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I always thought that Skip managed to use Angel against Cordy as well. By Birthday, the two had this deep, close relationship (especially one built on trust and love and all that jazz), and Skip knew that Angel would be the last straw, so to speak, in pushing her in the direction the PtB (or Jasmine, rather), wanted her to go.

But if they had planned everything from the get-go, then they knew that Cordy would pick Angel over her health and humanity...this is making my head hurt. Nevermind.
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All I ever wanted was to see the fallout, and while I'm happy we got to see her off, I'd have rather seen them deal with their own set up. Feh.
Same here. S5 could've and possibly would've been instantly better than what we got if they had dealt with Cordy's situation. Yeah, it wouldn't have been bright and cheery and Buffy-lite, but, dammit, it would've been good storytelling.
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Old 08-17-2005, 04:05 PM   #485
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It's a long time since I've seen the episodes, but at the time I thought Cordelia's decision to go to the higher realm with Skip was understandable. The last time Cordy had been visited by Skip in Birthday, as far as she knew, the decision she made saved her from the killer visions and Angel from madness.
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Old 08-17-2005, 04:14 PM   #486
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The problem is guys, when you have a big mistake/flaw in the writing, trying to elaborate anything based on that is like trying to put a cube in the place where it goes the circle. There's no way. As I said, if Jasmine planned everything, the plan started waaaaaayy before ATS 1, because she needed them, so EVERYTHING that caused the gang be in LA was for Jasmine. And that's ridiculous.
My thought? the writers wanted to make a "oh so clever" twist that only put them in a biiiiig mess. They even said Gunn's speach was the answer to that, like implying even if it was Jasmine's plan, THEY made the choices and not her. Weird and illogic? yes, but it's ME trying to be intelligent.
There's no way to understand that episode, specially with what happened on ATS 5 and YW: she was used, the powers didn't do anything and she was still on their side? And the gang reaction towards the new champion Spike? Even if it was all made by Lindsey, they still believed in the Powers? See no sense.
So, even if it's a interesting discussion, there's no way we can see any light on this, because it's impossible. All was part of the plan or anything was part of the plan (even Skip and Jasmine said it was planned looooooong time ago)

As I said, it's like those test (I don't remember the name and I don't know how to explain it on English): trying to put the wood cube in the circle's place.....
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Old 08-17-2005, 04:51 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by psychofilly
All I ever wanted was to see the fallout, and while I'm happy we got to see her off, I'd have rather seen them deal with their own set up. Feh.
I think we're all bozos on that bus. But by the end of S4 the Enemies had the network telling them not just to fix their mess, but how to go about it. At that point we weren't gonna get the Cordy storyline even without the infectious dipshititude in the writing room.
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Old 08-17-2005, 04:58 PM   #488
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Old 08-17-2005, 07:00 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by evil_toady
Jasmine was eating people to keep her own power going, so she could help more. Basically, it was for the "greater good" (whatever that means), and, to paraphase, yes, she was killing thousands - to save billions.
I thought, Jasmine was eating people to make mankind all over again? I remember Gunn saying something like that. I have to watch that episode again, and see.
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Old 08-17-2005, 08:50 PM   #490
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I thought, Jasmine was eating people to make mankind all over again? I remember Gunn saying something like that. I have to watch that episode again, and see.
Nope, she was just eatin'. That's how she survived, healed, maintained energy. People fuel.
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Old 08-18-2005, 06:50 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by DamnSkippy
Nope, she was just eatin'. That's how she survived, healed, maintained energy. People fuel.
Yea, I was watching that episode a few hours ago. Your right, but its weird that a former Higher being needs to eat humans to survive.
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Old 08-18-2005, 07:46 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside
its weird that a former Higher being needs to eat humans to survive.
It was never specifically stated that she needed to eat people to survive. I think it was specifically for her power of making people devoted to her.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:13 PM   #493
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It was never specifically stated that she needed to eat people to survive. I think it was specifically for her power of making people devoted to her.
She did need to feed to get stronger and renew her energy when she was was injured. She was definitely weak after being shot. So I think we can extrapolate that she at least would have lost her powers if she didn't feed. I don't know if she would have died; maybe she just would have been human.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:24 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by DamnSkippy
She did need to feed to get stronger and renew her energy when she was was injured. She was definitely weak after being shot. So I think we can extrapolate that she at least would have lost her powers if she didn't feed. I don't know if she would have died; maybe she just would have been human.
That's a possibility, but your right. When she was shot, she was probably losing her power, because of the lost of blood.
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Old 08-20-2005, 06:06 PM   #495
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I want to echo what Penny said.

When Cordy ascended, I didn't see it as an act guided by hubris, vanity or blind fanatism. I think she was so easily duped, because Skip with his "what you're being called to do transcends love" speech and his "by the way, this is a hidden test" attitude made her feel guilty about wanting to put her romantic life first. She wasn't going to do that again, not after what happened with Connor's abduction.

And Cordy expressed she felt she was being punished -- for how she was in high school -- before she received the visions. So I never got the "saint" label -- originated in season 3 --, because, to me, self-awareness is a quality that can be a catalyst to mature. That and learning from past experiences.

Unlike with Angel. His big epiphany was the same one he had in "Judgment" and was later forgotten in "Provider" with his "I help you if you pay me first" motto.
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Last edited by Cata; 08-21-2005 at 11:53 AM.
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