AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by QueenC4707

but as soon as Darla staked herself I found it easy to put away the DVD.

Why is that? I thought it would be interesting seeing Angel as a father. Like, how would things turn out. When Connor grow's up, how is he going to feel about having a dad for a vampire. I just felt like I wanted more, just to see what would happen to the baby.

[califi]

My Wife and 3 Kids... that's another fave show of mine.... a family show. AtS wasn't. I watched the first for lightness and fun. AtS I tuned in for a bit of dark action/drama/fantasy - minus kids, and I looked forward to each episode with relish.

When Baby Connor came along the whole tone of the series changed, and I may be in the minority, but watching Angel taking on parental responsibilities and then having nearly everything revolving around that ruined the series for me. JMO.

[Annlynnmarie]

I completely Agree with Califi. The moment Angel's baby was brought onto the show, I began to fear the worst Three Men, 1.5 Demons, One Nerdy Little Lady and a Baby!!

It was smart of TPTB to quickly age Conner but the whole I Hate My Dad routine got old fast. Season 4 was torture to watch.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by califi

When Baby Connor came along the whole tone of the series changed, and I may be in the minority, but watching Angel taking on parental responsibilities and then having nearly everything revolving around that ruined the series for me. JMO.

Well, I believe that's why they brought Holtz back, and taking the baby away from Angel. So it wouldn't be Angel taking on parental responsibilities for the rest of the season.

[califi]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Well, I believe that's why they brought Holtz back, and taking the baby away from Angel. So it wouldn't be Angel taking on parental responsibilities for the rest of the season.

Come on, lol. Connor was snatched...and it was STILL about Connor. No diff to me- oh, tell a lie, the show became one big mopefest after.

[Mr.Brightside]

Yea, it was still about Connor because Angel was trying to find him. But when he know he couldn't. Thats when Angel moved on, and tried not to think about that whole situation. Started doing his job.

[brownsbros3]

I didn't have a problem with baby Connor. It was the adult Connor that I had the problem with. To me, they just didn't do much to make him very likeable, and most of that was not Vinnie K's fault. I would have much rather seen some sort of showdown between Angel, Connor, Holtz, and Sahjhan at the end of season three then Angel being sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and Cordelia's ascension. I had proposed in other sections (I don't know if I've done it here) that I would liked to have seen Connor find out that Angel isn't the bad guy and side with him against Holtz and Sahjhan, or Holtz find out that Sahjhan was really trying to kill Connor and sacrifice himself to save the boy. This way they could have started fresh with season four rather than continue dragging the storyline all the way to the series finale.

I liked the mopefest in Double or Nothing and at the beginning of The Price. To me, it helped bring Angel and Cordelia closer together. She consoled him over the loss of his son. He consoled her when she felt guilty over not being there for him.

To me season four started off okay, but when they got to the end of Apocalypse Nowish, the show just went downhill from there.

[Prima]

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

To me season four started off okay, but when they got to the end of Apocalypse Nowish, the show just went downhill from there.

My thoughts on why Season 4 was such a disaster still remain deep rooted in the belief that no TV show, not just Angel, can weather multiple Executive Producer changes during it's entire run, let alone a single season.

I have yet to see a single show succeed under those circumstances. Ever.

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by Prima

My thoughts on why Season 4 was such a disaster still remain deep rooted in the belief that no TV show, not just Angel, can weather multiple Executive Producer changes during it's entire run, let alone a single season.

I have yet to see a single show succeed under those circumstances. Ever.

An interesting, showbiz-specific corollary to the old "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" rule? I'll buy it for a buck.

[brownsbros3]

Originally Posted by Prima

My thoughts on why Season 4 was such a disaster still remain deep rooted in the belief that no TV show, not just Angel, can weather multiple Executive Producer changes during it's entire run, let alone a single season.

I totally agree. Seasons 1-3 were under the control of David Greenwalt and Tim Minear. Whether I liked the direction or not, most of the time the stories all seemed to flow together, and had consistency and logic to it.

Seasons 4-5 were under the supervision of Jeffrey Bell, David Fury, and Steven DeKnight. Most of the episodes in season four after Apocalypse Nowish made very little sense. Some of them were really boring, and then they'd throw on an plot twist at the end in hopes of keeping the audience coming back for another week. Season five was a mixed bag. It was Whedon's creative licensing policy of never letting a little thing like continuity get in the way of telling a "good" story.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

I totally agree. Seasons 1-3 were under the control of David Greenwalt and Tim Minear. Whether I liked the direction or not, most of the time the stories all seemed to flow together, and had consistency and logic to it.

Seasons 4-5 were under the supervision of Jeffrey Bell, David Fury, and Steven DeKnight. Most of the episodes in season four after Apocalypse Nowish made very little sense. Some of them were really boring, and then they'd throw on an plot twist at the end in hopes of keeping the audience coming back for another week.

I thought right after Jasmine came, the episodes started to get boring. Not after "Apocalypse Nowish". Seeing Angelus again and Faith fighting him was awesome. But once Jasmine came into the picture, everything started to go downhill for the show. The only episode that was interesting in the Jasmine arc, was "Home" IMO.

[JoJo]

thought right after Jasmine came, the episodes started to get boring. Not after "Apocalypse Nowish". Seeing Angelus again and Faith fighting him was awesome. But once Jasmine came into the picture, everything started to go downhill for the show. The only episode that was interesting in the Jasmine arc, was "Home" IMO.

I agree with you on that. I hated the whole Jasmine arc from Inside Out when we were told that everything we saw up until then was a lie, to the dull eps that followed.

I didn't have a problem with baby Connor. It was the adult Connor that I had the problem with. To me, they just didn't do much to make him very likeable, and most of that was not Vinnie K's fault. I would have much rather seen some sort of showdown between Angel, Connor, Holtz, and Sahjhan at the end of season three then Angel being sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and Cordelia's ascension.

Someone else who didn't dislike Baby Connor at last! Maybe because the second ep I saw was Lullaby, but I never had a problem with the baby. I also liked S3 Teen Connor until he sunk Angel. It was whiny, mopy, "I hate my Dad!", Dawn part II, Angsty Connor that I disliked and I absolutely loathed him after he kidnapped and murdered that innocent girl in Inside Out.

As for S5 Connor, on one hand he was certainly a lot more likeable, on the other, his shiny new life was completely unearned and came at the sacrifice of the others. Connor never repented or atoned for his evil deeds in any way, shape or form, and AFAIC, Angel's wiping everyone's memories did not absolve Connor. I'm also tired of hearing how hard his childhood was. I don't believe that Holtz would have raised him to murder innocents.

They had a chance to turn Connor into a deep, emotional, fascinating character, and produce a great storyline for it, but they ruined it.

True and you can say the same thing about Fred.

I didn't see why the rest of the gang needed their memories altered. It's not like they wouldn't have understood and I thought it manipulated them unfairly into taking the positions with Wolfram and Hart. They may have taken them on their own, but Wes and Fred at least were iffy about it (which I already found out of character, as much as they had seen, I can't imagine them trusting W&H) and then they just accepted that Angel had signed them all up.

This is pure speculation, but I figure that the reason for the 'everyone gets in the limo and joins W&H' storyline was that if Angel had acted unilaterally, wiping everyone's memories and signing them up as W&H employees, he would have been rightfully seen as a selfish monster and it would have been completely impossible to see him as a hero. So to get around that, the writers had everyone tempted by W&H, effectively trashing their characters and turning them all into a bunch of morally corrupt sellouts, which had a far worse impact on the show, IMHO.

From Psychofilly:

Hee. This makes me laugh. He couldn't help his son from not killing himself? So, instead of defusing the bomb and dragging Connor off to the nearest psychologist for several lifetimes of therapy, he once again takes the shortcut/quick fix of cutting Connor's throat his own damn self. Hee!

And in the process he mind rapes his friends and imo acts just as evilly as Jasmine did to Cordy by taking away their free will. We see how well those happier memories turned out. Cordy, Fred, and Wes dead, and Gunn bleeding to death in a stinky alleyway, Lorne made into a murderer (Lorne for gods sake!) Lindsey back and then dead. I choose to believe that the utterly boneheaded reason Lindsey came back was a side effect of the spell. Yay for Angel, he saves his son, but at the expense of everyone else. So selfless, that Angel, so noble.

And TeSjah:

But not because he put Connor in a happy family but because

a) He erased Connors memory out of his friends memory. You don't mess with the minds of your friends!
b) He only thought about the luxery benefits of W&H and I felt like he lost the mission in the end (again).

I couldn't agree more! Angel, once again, acted like a completely lazy, selfish bastard, sacrificing his friends in order to take the easy way out instead of dealing with his problems. He went from poverty and powerlessness to wealth and power - some sacrifice on his part.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by JoJo

As for S5 Connor, on one hand he was certainly a lot more likeable, on the other, his shiny new life was completely unearned and came at the sacrifice of the others. Connor never repented or atoned for his evil deeds in any way, shape or form, and AFAIC, Angel's wiping everyone's memories did not absolve Connor. I'm also tired of hearing how hard his childhood was. I don't believe that Holtz would have raised him to murder innocents..

There was no sacrifice of the others, all Angel did was wipe the memories of Connor. It had no effect to the gangs lives. Connor was so mest up, everyone was confusing him, specially (Evil) Cordelia. Not just her, but the Hell Dimension, really screwed him up. Your right about Holtz, not raising Connor to kill. But again, he was confused, evil seem to take over him, once (Evil) Cordy came. But Im not saying Connor is the best kid, he's made alot of mistakes. He know what good and evil was, once Angel gave him that speech at the end of "Deep Down".

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by JoJo

I agree with you on that. I hated the whole Jasmine arc from Inside Out when we were told that everything we saw up until then was a lie, to the dull eps that followed.

What do you mean, until then it was a lie? Like, the Reign of fire, and who was the master of the Beast?

[LaLa247]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

What do you mean, until then it was a lie? Like, the Reign of fire, and who was the master of the Beast?

No, that everything from Sunnydale on was controlled and orchestrated by Jasmine. I think.

Whatever. Let's just all agree that the show, when run by Whedon and his clan of Tweedledumbs sucked ass.