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Old 12-01-2003, 11:16 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by rolandro
[...]Angel and Cordy's having a book on baby health (where did that come from?)
They probably bought the baby book with all the other baby stuff they bought that night (They had diapers, blankets, medicine...).
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:52 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Penny Century
I don't know that that's true. Keep in mind that Cordy (and at this point Cordy alone) knew she was dying by the time Connor came along. If that plot thread had been developed properly -- hell, even wrung for all the angst inherent in the concept
Funny thing is that would have made for the start of a really good and natural E!C storyline. She's suffered debiliating pain from the Visions, lives with the knowledge that she will die from them, yet still keeps the visions b/c of her sense of duty to "the helpless". Then she gets to ascend and finds out that the PTB aren't all that good (more middle of the road types). Pretty good basis for a power corrupts storyline and a good vs. evil, free will, etc debate.

Pity ME shortchanged the character so much. Hell even if they "had" to write in the pregancy. Add one mystic pregnancy by the PTB that Cordy isn't thrilled with (feels used by) and there goes another natural storyline for Cordy to go dark. It's sad really
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Old 12-01-2003, 12:06 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan
Pretty good basis for a power corrupts storyline and a good vs. evil, free will, etc debate.
Shoot, just have Cordy in a perfectly natural position to decide she wants the world to be a better place for her and Groo's child and ride with that. ME gets the same situation Jasmine created without the eating people silliness, so there's a real conflict going between the free will and the results of free will being surpressed instead of the fake version of that story ME foisted on people, not to mention the attending "absolute power corrupts absolutely" story, and ME doesn't have to eat its own mythology by claiming anyone was anything's puppet. Plus, if Cordy inadvertently made everyone perfectly happy, ME doesn't even need the "what the hell were they thinking?" moments to explain how Angelus came to be. They still get Faith and Willow saving the day, 'cause by then I'm sure they'd been told they have to make Angel all about Buffy, and there's a real source of conflict between Angel and Connor instead of the contrived source ME came up with.

But then there's no SHOCK! and SURPRISE!, so what'cha ya gonna do?
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Old 12-01-2003, 12:28 PM   #169
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Exactly! So much set up in S2/S3 for a great pay-off in S4 and nada.

I do wonder what would have happened with Cordy in S4 even HB!C or E!C if Greenie was still in charge?
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Old 12-01-2003, 12:35 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan
I do wonder what would have happened with Cordy in S4 even HB!C or E!C if Greenie was still in charge?
Ah, you had to bring up THE MAN.

I always appreciated him, and I remember feeling a lot of trepidation when they announced he was moving on. But I realize now, more than ever, how much he must've controlled the balance of AtS. Even though I liked season 4, I do think it didn't all tie together in the end, and I bet DG would've made a huge difference in how it played out. Not to mention the Cordy storyline.

And "Dad" is another episode I liked a lot more after a little time. That seems to happen a lot with this show. Episodes I once thought were so-so now strike me as being really good. It's weird, but I like it!
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Old 12-01-2003, 03:20 PM   #171
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That's true - but the baby book? Remember, the gang didn't know what Darla was carrying, they were all armed as protection against Darla, but also ready to stake the baby ala Alien, if it ended up 'skittering' as Angel described it. No one thought Connor would be human, then. In 'Dad' timeline-wise the results of the hotel ambush were everywhere. They hadn't been to the hotel since the ultrasound excursion to the hospital. Getting ambushed by the Vamps in the operating theatree would leave her precious little time to get a Public Health publication on what human babies need in their first few days of life.

But you're right, Penny. Cordy knew she was dying. And this fact is just another example of a plot point left unexplored for the sake of being a surprise later on.

Sounds like I need to pick up the Cliff Notes.
Surprise Me! I'm dying! I've just been too busy helping the homeless (ed. DOH!) to really notice!

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Old 12-01-2003, 03:58 PM   #172
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They stopped off after the baby was born to pick up stuff. IIRC, "Dad" opens with the FG coming into the Hotel with bags of baby stuff.
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Old 12-01-2003, 04:22 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan
They stopped off after the baby was born to pick up stuff. IIRC, "Dad" opens with the FG coming into the Hotel with bags of baby stuff.
Didn't I say that at the top of this page? Am I invisible?

I like this episode more and more every time I see it. The C/A vibes are so very strong- let's all give Boreanaz a round of applause for the unscripted "sad eyes"...

This also brings back a giggle- I remember when people thought Angel was calling Buffy before he went to Pylea. But he *wasn't*! He was callin' GUNN! /glee

ETA: I'm catching some C/G vibes in this ep too. Interesting.
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Old 12-01-2003, 05:34 PM   #174
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You're not invisible, Lala (really. How could you be?) But they were in a rush, and I coulda swore that the book was Dept. Health/Welfare. I have it on tape, too lazy to rewind - yet. But really, the fact that she had or didn't have the book is not that important, in my mind. Using the 'ambush' metaphor for Cordy's whole behavior here, it wasn't so much that she 'discovered' all this stuff Connor would need in the next few days, it was more like she 'sprung' it. Pop! Cordy as Mother. The idea that Cordy and Angel actually humanized each other during their blossoming friendship is also possible. It's just that in their mindset at the time it seems a stretch. Don't get me wrong here, I LOVE that Cordy has the thread of the 'family' and that Angel will need to trust them to raise his son properly (and couldn't you see a normal Connor at some point, finding out the a. Cordy is NOT his real Mom and b. that Angel is NOT a normal dad and her telling him that these are not necessarily bad things, but that's not tv or dramatic, is it? but it is there.)

I just think that it didn't feel organic within Cordy - as shown thus far - but rather some writer going to extremes (ed. - well, not necessarily to extremes, but to stretch her into something more) to tell us that 'Cordy is Changing.' Some simple forshadowing of Cordy's condition (I'm dying. Cordy writing: 'Things I hope to do before I die' - 'Baby'. But then, if she was dying, who would raise her child?)

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Old 12-01-2003, 05:54 PM   #175
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I guess I just don't think that was something they necessarily needed to foreshadow. Again, with Cordy facing maybe months, maybe weeks to live, there could be all sorts of things she didn't know she wanted until her options had shrunk to that short, narrow path with the grave at the end of it. Maybe having her own baby wasn't on her to-do list, but it's reasonable to think she'd enjoy however much time she could spend with her friend's baby, especially since -- fancy that -- she was the one who'd never see that milestone in her own time. Again, lost in the writing and in the careless, heedless abandonment of the real issues involved in placing a death sentence on a 21-year-old woman, but this is Em Mee, and it's par for Em Mee's course.

Mileage varies, I'm sure.
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Old 12-01-2003, 06:35 PM   #176
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I guess I don't see the problem. Not unusual since I'm not the biggest and best at character analyzation. Hell, I don't really even know where to start. But, I saw Cordy doing what Cordy always does. Taking the bull by the horns and taking charge. Seeing that there was something to be done and doing it. Connor was a 'helpless' baby and her whole raison d'etre was helping the helpless, so her becoming super mom IMO was not a stretch.

There was never any opportunity given to her character in either BtVS or Ats to interact with kids, so how do we know she didn't have the mothering vibe? If anything, the whole taking care of her FG family oozes mothering, so to extend that to a baby makes perfect sense. Of course, what we've seen of her mothering technique with adults is far different than how she is shown mothering a baby which is as it should be. But, I have no doubt that it comes from the same need to care for and protect those she loves.
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Old 12-01-2003, 06:36 PM   #177
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I didn't really see it as maternal instinct kicking in. Rather I saw it as Cordelia's "just get it done" attitude. She always seemed to confront issues straight on, so, to me, if she had to figure out quick how to care for a baby, she'd take the most direct route---and buy a book. (Well, direct considering she wouldn't exactly have been the "babysitter" type in high school.)
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Old 12-01-2003, 06:51 PM   #178
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The difference is what I SEE vs. what I WANT to see. So I'm sad I don't know that Cordy is dying, or that somewhere in her tranformation from vain teen to empath I didn't get some glimpse of the need for something deeper in her life. If you read other posts of mine, you'll see that I think the notion of 'family' is an unarticulated hunger for this character - as a spoiled teen, Cordy was always so unimpressed with the expensive substitutions of the European holidays, the ski trips, the spas and other tokens of exchange for real human interaction with her own absent family. Cordy was distrustful of 'nice' behaviors with others, and her Sunnydale snark was such a transparent defense mechanism against dissappointment. Now she's in relationships with people that know both the 'new' her and the 'old' her people that accept her totally as Cordelia - and people that tell her they like both - and Cordy believes that the 'old her' was there to protect the 'new her'- which is something she is now learning makes her feel fulfilled.

Cordy needed a moment to go, 'Baby? (Breathe!) This is new. What does this mean for me, for the promises I make to my friends?' I would've liked to see that flash across the screen at some point. I accept the reason that you give, that Em Mee short-changed Cordy because they didn't respect her.

DamnSkippy - like I said earlier, Cordy was a Mom - but for grownups - and becoming a baby/mother may have been on her short-list of things to do. However, this stuff has to evolve in some way, it just can't be: 'Cordy's evolving, this is one of the ways we see that.' This is not incremental development, this is - at least to this childless middle-aged man - more of a quantum leap of mind set that deserves at least a little bit of exposition. It would've made it more interesting.

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Old 12-01-2003, 07:04 PM   #179
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I'm probably not within a mile of the current convo, so I'll just ramble.

I always thought that on screen (Not what ME intended, I'm sure) is that it was "What Cordy thought" verus "What Angel sees". Cordy never on screen thought of herself as Connor's mother, she was "Auntie Cordy". She was not Connor's mother, but she took care of him and loved him as Angel's kid. She cared for Angel, so naturally she would care for his kid as well. Cordelia, who most definately knew she was dying by the time Dad came along, probably just jumped at the opportunity to hold an infant and to be apart of Angel's blood family, which was never supposed to happen, y'know?

And Angel allowed it.

I think while Cordy saw herself as "Auntie Cordy", Angel always saw her as Connor's mom (After Dad). By this time, his feelings for her were surfacing, so I fanwank think that maybe this was just the ideal situation for him- he has a son and Cordelia can be his mom (Kinda like Angelus confirmed in Souless). Since the show is called Angel, I can imagine what we see on screen is supposed to be what Angel sees/thinks/etc.

Yeah, I'm leaving, I made no sense.
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Old 12-02-2003, 03:30 AM   #180
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I get ya, LaLa. I really do think that Angel started seeing himself, Connor and Cordy as a little family. He just never got around to telling her that.

And I agree about the book. Thinking about it, of all the FG, Cordy seems like the logical one to get a book about taking care of a baby. That's just Cordy. If there's something that needs doing, she does it. Or tells someone else to do it.

And I love today's episode, if for no other reason than to see Angel completely freak out when Cordy disappears. Angel looking for Cordy behind those curtains because, in his panic, he'd rather believe she's playing a game of hid-and-seek than that's she's been sucked through a portal. And the way he said, "I just got her back."

Awwwwwww.

And I know I'm jumping ahead, but I'm trying to imagine "Heartthrob" not being shown in widescreen. Of all the episodes, it's one that took the most advantage of it. It really had a cinematic feel.
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