The women of Whedon

[jaywalker]

Mmm - my own top five are:

Cordy
Willow
River
Faith
Zoe

Just never got the Fred character. Adore Amy Acker's performance but felt the character was never developed. Like this game. Anyone want to name their top 5 guest stars on Angel?

[skippcomet]

See, Joss isn't a true feminist unless he rebels against the womanly features and attributes that patriarchal society values and upholds (in a sexist manner, of course) and tries to force all women to live up to, like breasts, hips, curves, and actual physical and emotional maturity. Who needs grown women when you can have giggly, immature, stick-figures? (Sorry, I've forgotten the sarcastic font. Also, no offense to an any actual giggly, immature, stick-thin girls. I shouldn't hate on you because your champion Joss is a douchebag.)

[SlytherinAngelic]

Does my top five, cause I want to!

Cordelia Chase
Harmony
Anya
Drusilla
Faith

and if I continued that past five, the sixth pick would either be Buffy (I don't hate her like I use to, she's a good person... sometimes. I rather not bash her for being the throat slicer in the C/A relationship or for her completely tossing Spike aside like yesterday's old news. Okay... wait a second, why did I like her in the first place? lol... I got to go rethink my sixth choice) or Tara.

[SlytherinAngelic]

None taken! *points at giggly, immature stick-thin 117 pounds self* Although I say I'm not as immature as I could be. Giggly though... very Fred-esque sometimes.

[Kea]

My top 3 are:
Cordelia
Anya
Faith ok I have just three.

But I also liked:
Tara
Joyce
Jenny


Edited to say: I never watched Firefly but I now know who River is. Yeah!!!

[Syn]

As for my list:

Cordelia
Faith
River
Anya
Lilah

I guess I like my women strong and bitchy. lol

[nikkiwawa]

Don't worry Syn, I like mine strong and bitchy, too

I don't remember doing this, but I'll give my Top 5:

Cordelia
Faith
Buffy
Darla
Anya and Lilah (it's my list, so I can do what I want :P lol)

[Shadow4Corangela]

Originally Posted by jerry

The one great consistency of Joss's favorite women is that they really aren't actually women. His shows featured some female characters who were, including Cordy, Lilah, Jenny Calendar, and Zoe, but Joss always had greater love for the perpetual adolescents.

In taht case I'm extremely glad Cordelia is not on the list.

Originally Posted by Syn

I guess I like my women strong and bitchy. lol

yay! I'm not alone.

My list is:
Cordelia
Faith
Willow <-- yes I'm well aware she's not bitchy.
Lilah
Drusilla

and Buffy (recently, to my surprise)

[samsmom]

Um, hmmm. Not sure if I've got enough for five.

Cordelia
Buffy
Darla
Drusilla

Yep.

I was right.

[Syn]

Originally Posted by Shadow4Corangela

Willow <-- yes I'm well aware she's not bitchy.

I beg to disagree. I found Willow extremely bitchy...but passive aggressively so. She didn't come right out and say it, but she made her thoughts known. Which is why I didn't respect her much.

Of course that's just one complaint I have against Willow. She has her moments, but she's definitely my least favorite female Whedon character. EVER.

[samsmom]

Here's why Willow isn't my favorite.

Of all the things Cordelia said TO willow - the clothing choices (come on, was she wrong about the Sears thing?), the nerdiness - she NEVER called Willow a skanky ho, not even after catching Willow and Xander kissing, and she would have had a right then. But Willow doesn't say anything to Cordelia about how she feels about Xander dating Cordelia - she calls Cordelia a skanky ho to Buffy in Phases, and commiserates with Cordelia in that same episode.

Two faced much?

Not to mention, as much as she's my second favorite female in the 'verse, Buffy called Cordelia a vapid whore in s3 - and wasn't apologetic about it. What's the worst Cordelia ever called Buffy? A heartbreaker.

So again, who were the bitches and who was the one picked on?

*pauses*

Sorry.

Got ranty, didn't I?

[Syn]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Here's why Willow isn't my favorite.

Of all the things Cordelia said TO willow - the clothing choices (come on, was she wrong about the Sears thing?), the nerdiness - she NEVER called Willow a skanky ho, not even after catching Willow and Xander kissing, and she would have had a right then. But Willow doesn't say anything to Cordelia about how she feels about Xander dating Cordelia - she calls Cordelia a skanky ho to Buffy in Phases, and commiserates with Cordelia in that same episode.

Two faced much?

Not to mention, as much as she's my second favorite female in the 'verse, Buffy called Cordelia a vapid whore in s3 - and wasn't apologetic about it. What's the worst Cordelia ever called Buffy? A heartbreaker.

So again, who were the bitches and who was the one picked on?

*pauses*

Sorry.

Got ranty, didn't I?

I like the way you rant. I agree with everything you said, too. Willow was two-faced...which is pretty much what that whole magic addiction thing was about. Her dark side was her true side, is my personal opinion. Willow also had very little respect for the people in her life--she thought she was better than them and that feeling only grew the more the series went on.

She cheated on Oz--who for reasons I still don't know--took her back. She hurt Cordelia--and did she EVER say she was sorry to her? I don't think so--Vamp!Willow was sorrier about the whole thing and she didn't even know what was going on. My least favorite Willow moment of all time would have to be the moment where she's crying in the bathroom after finding out that Faith and Xander slept together. THE HELL? What was that about? It should have been Cordelia who was in that bathroom stall, not Willow. I just hate that scene.

And the ho and whore comments always bothered me. Cordelia was the last one to lose her virginity. She didn't even sleep with Xander, and she was in love with him. Where do Buffy and Willow get off calling HER that? Willow was willing to sleep with Oz to get back in his good graces--that's so whorish it's not even funny. Good thing Oz had more moral fiber than most 18-year-olds.

Yeah. I really don't like Willow and the more I think of it, the more reasons I can drum up not to.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Here's why Willow isn't my favorite.

Of all the things Cordelia said TO willow - the clothing choices (come on, was she wrong about the Sears thing?), the nerdiness - she NEVER called Willow a skanky ho, not even after catching Willow and Xander kissing, and she would have had a right then. But Willow doesn't say anything to Cordelia about how she feels about Xander dating Cordelia - she calls Cordelia a skanky ho to Buffy in Phases, and commiserates with Cordelia in that same episode.

Two faced much?

Not to mention, as much as she's my second favorite female in the 'verse, Buffy called Cordelia a vapid whore in s3 - and wasn't apologetic about it. What's the worst Cordelia ever called Buffy? A heartbreaker.

So again, who were the bitches and who was the one picked on?

*pauses*

Sorry.

Got ranty, didn't I?

You are always amazing and getting right to the point of things. I think you really hit the nail on the head with the way Cordelia was painted. We were told she was this huge bitch but there are numerous times in BTVS when she did nothing but help the Scoobies, even when they treated her like crapola.

I always went from not really caring about Willow to not liking her. But fandom has completely made me hate Willow. I used to really like Willow/Tara but thanks to a small group of very prolific people, I can't even read anything with Willow anymore.

But back on top, my top four:

Cordelia
Faith
Darla
Inara

And while I like other characters (Like Tara and Dawn, yes I like Dawn), I don't think enough to put them on a list.

[nikkiwawa]

Damn, I must triple agree with you Syn, Sam, and Livvie.

I was never big on Willow. With the exception of Buffy, am I bad to say I disliked the Scooby gang? Xander had his moments, but I wanted to strangle him, more than I liked him lol Willow was just...Willow. She always talked mad crap on Cordy but never said it to her face. And, Oz, I adored. Buffy even came had her bad moments with Cordy(don't EVEN get me started), but I think deep down, she understood Cordy. Buffy, WAS Cordy when she lived in L.A.

What REALLY bothered me about Willow, was when they brought Buffy back from the dead, it was like 'oh Buffy we spent all the money your mom left behind on stuff we needed, and medical bills but we didn't pay any other bills or bothered to get any jobs to help pay for the bills, I guess that means you have to do all the work, Buffy." Willow lived in that house for free! WTF, if I were Buffy, she would have been kicked out, if she didn't help me.

Yeah, when I re-watch btvs with my boyfriend, he gets a little annoyed, but a little amused, too, b/c I'm always making comments to Xander and Willow here and there lmao

[Bullocks]

Echo and Dandelion could be promotional, but if you have the opportunity to watch season 4 with the director's/writer's commentary, its pretty clear that Whedon and co. love Fred--the character, the concept, and especially writing for her. She's the ATS Willow to them, I think if he were asked to compile a list of just Buffy babes he would have gone with Willow in his top 3...

its possible if they asked him about pre-season 4 he would have said cordelia, but I don't think that has anything to do with his relationship with charisma, i think it has more to do with his preference for writing and creating certain types of characters.

It seems like the writers loved her character up until about mid season 3, when they started picking up more on writing for Fred.

ETA- I've always been a meh on Willow, she's ok...I definitely didn't get all the hype by the end of season 7...and season 6 finale was okay....

and I never noticed those comments you guys made in season 3 of BTVS, but that is true for both her and Buffy, but the writers have a way of loving their "good guys" to the point of not dwelling on their flaws. In this case, everyone who hates or is mean to Willow and Buffy is a raving bitch, and unfortunately some shipper fans tend to agree---

This made me think of Cordelia's commentary on Buffy's treatment of Angel in ATS S1...pretty funny looking back:

"Wait--she didn't even write a letter!" (rofl)

My top four would be--

1. Darla
2. Cordelia
3. Fred/Illyria (isn't Illyria technically a guy?)
4. Faith (probably a toss up between her and Buffy depending on how I'm feeling about them)