Demons/Souls??

SlytherinAngelic · 01-18-2008, 11:59 PM

I've been wondering do the BTVS/Angel's demons have souls? Some might say no, because vampires do not have them. But Lorne is able to read souls right? When he had Caritas, demons came there to sing karaoke and get their souls read right? The only reason he could read Angel, is because... duh he had a soul? Or is Lorne reading something else, like auras? I just thought about this like two minutes ago.

DamnSkippy · 01-19-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlytherinAngelic

I've been wondering do the BTVS/Angel's demons have souls? Some might say no, because vampires do not have them. But Lorne is able to read souls right? When he had Caritas, demons came there to sing karaoke and get their souls read right? The only reason he could read Angel, is because... duh he had a soul? Or is Lorne reading something else, like auras? I just thought about this like two minutes ago.

I don't think they ever said Lorne reads souls. He just sees what's going to happen or can tell how they feel and *I think* it was intimated that it's like seeing the auras. However, I'm not sure how that explains how he could tell whether or not Cordy was still in her body in Birthday unless there was just no aura there and, thus, nobody was home.

As far as demons having souls, didn't Lorne once say that demons have souls they're just different. Or was that in a fanfic I read?

Livvie · 01-19-2008, 11:30 AM

Lorne did say that when people sing, they bare their souls. It is in Happy Anniversary: LORNE: Yes, I can, if you'd let me get a word in edgewise, Mr. Get-to-the-point-y-pants. So this guy I've never seen before gets up to sing. Usually I love it. You know, they sing, I read their futures, their auras, I see into their souls ...

So I am not sure if we should take that as literal or not. If a demon doesn't have a soul, then does it have an aura? It is a living thing. I guess it depends on what criteria you are using for what an aura is. I don't remember IF Lorne said that demons have souls but they are different. I am trying to see if I can find any info about that.

But as far as Buffy goes, I think in the early seasons, all demons were considered to be soulless monsters. Then you get Clem coming in and it kind of changes things. Though they never said Clem had a soul (or any of Anya's family at her wedding) but Clem wasn't a "bad" guy.

I guess the question is, do you need a soul to tell the difference between right and wrong. You look at a vampire, then yes. Because vampires couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong (or rather, feel remorse for doing something wrong) without a soul. So if there are good demons and bad demons, they must have souls to be able to decide.

But as far as any kind of definite answer, I can't seem to remember any.

DamnSkippy · 01-19-2008, 03:48 PM

By that quote, he says he "reads" their auras but "sees" into their souls. Maybe the seeing into their souls is just the part that allows him to see if their intentions are malevolent or good. If they don't have a soul, then he couldn't get that aspect of the reading but, then, he would already know the answer because without a soul the answer would always be evil.

Again, I'm not sure if it was fanfic, but I remember something about demon's souls being "souls" but they're just "demon souls," i.e., a different kind of soul. Maybe it was Merle who said something about it? I dunno. I'm probably hallucinating.

As far as Clem and the other good demons go, it may not be due to a soul. I think it was established that not all demon species are bad. Doyle's demon species, the species of demon that Harriett was engaged to was supposedly not bad (just with old, questionable rituals), etc. Perhaps the good demons are hybrids. The Scourge was all about getting rid of the hybrids so maybe that's it. Except Vampires are considered hybrids and they're not on the good side so I guess that theory's shot. *iz puzzled*

Spike might be the missing link. He did good without a soul, so it seems the mythology was heading toward the belief that demons don't need souls to be good, they can just choose to be. The soul is merely the conscience that causes guilt in species that have them if they do something bad. So it's easier to be good with a soul since you have that constant beating of guilt every time you do something evil. So, in reality, a demon that does good by choice is actually better than a being with a soul because the demon doesn't have a crutch that forces it to be good.

Livvie · 01-19-2008, 09:42 PM

Mike and I were talking about it this morning for a while and we came to one consensus...

We couldn't think of evidence either way.

He said that he thought Angel told Kate that demons didn't have souls but had degrees of evil from none to evil evil. I haven't tried to look that up yet to see. I am really horrible at remembering dialogue sometimes.

It could have just been bad writing too. Something they didn't bother to address. I don't know, I feel...bad I guess if Lorne didn't have a soul. But you could argue the old addage that music comes from the soul sooo...I don't know.

I think it is just confusing all around to be honest.

samsmom · 01-19-2008, 10:47 PM

Well, you know. Joss did say continuity was for pu**ies.

So there you go. Demons were soulless things when it served the storyline, and mostly when Giles made that speech in the pilot to Xander about vampires, they didn't know that Spike was going to come along and bullocks it all up.

AtS was supposed to be more adult, more grey. Evil was a law firm full of human beings supported by The Senior Partners and there were demons like Doyle and that poor Slurpee drinking demon in the sewers in That Old Gang of Mine who were harmless or productive members of society. So I think the idea of demons having souls changed season to season, writer to writer. Whatever served the storyline.

Dannyblue · 01-19-2008, 11:17 PM

I don't think it was ever stated that all demons didn't have souls. And I don't think a creature has to be soulless to be evil. There have been some pretty evil humans who (as far as anyone knows) had souls.

Vampires are special as far as demons go because they were human, so their souls were human. Before getting vamped, they had to deal with the same morals, and guilt, and a conscious, and all that other stuff, that any other human does. If vamps didn't lose their souls, some would embrace evil (because they were not-so-nice people to begin with), but others would...well, be like Angel. Maybe not with the brooding, but with trying to find ways to survive without killing, because their human souls would tear them up with guilt if they did anything else.

But, even if an "evil" demon has a soul, it's not a human soul, and probably isn't guided by the same morals, etc., as a humans soul is. So I think demons could have what we'd consider a soul and still be plenty evil because, to them, doing things we'd consider evil probably wouldn't be seen as bad, or wrong, or things to feel guilty about. Does a lion feel bad about stalking and killing weaker prey? Heck, do humans feel bad when we eat chicken or beef?

And I kinda wish I hadn't thought of that last one.

01-18-2008, 11:59 PM	#1
SlytherinAngelic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Backseat of Dean Winchester's Car Posts: 128	Demons/Souls?? I've been wondering do the BTVS/Angel's demons have souls? Some might say no, because vampires do not have them. But Lorne is able to read souls right? When he had Caritas, demons came there to sing karaoke and get their souls read right? The only reason he could read Angel, is because... duh he had a soul? Or is Lorne reading something else, like auras? I just thought about this like two minutes ago.

01-19-2008, 11:30 AM	#3
Livvie nutcase Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seventh Ring of Hell Posts: 1,108	Lorne did say that when people sing, they bare their souls. It is in Happy Anniversary: LORNE: Yes, I can, if you'd let me get a word in edgewise, Mr. Get-to-the-point-y-pants. So this guy I've never seen before gets up to sing. Usually I love it. You know, they sing, I read their futures, their auras, I see into their souls ... So I am not sure if we should take that as literal or not. If a demon doesn't have a soul, then does it have an aura? It is a living thing. I guess it depends on what criteria you are using for what an aura is. I don't remember IF Lorne said that demons have souls but they are different. I am trying to see if I can find any info about that. But as far as Buffy goes, I think in the early seasons, all demons were considered to be soulless monsters. Then you get Clem coming in and it kind of changes things. Though they never said Clem had a soul (or any of Anya's family at her wedding) but Clem wasn't a "bad" guy. I guess the question is, do you need a soul to tell the difference between right and wrong. You look at a vampire, then yes. Because vampires couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong (or rather, feel remorse for doing something wrong) without a soul. So if there are good demons and bad demons, they must have souls to be able to decide. But as far as any kind of definite answer, I can't seem to remember any. __________________ "No regrets. That is what I say. That and everybody Wang Chung tonight" -Out Cold "I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa

01-19-2008, 03:48 PM	#4
DamnSkippy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 4,895	By that quote, he says he "reads" their auras but "sees" into their souls. Maybe the seeing into their souls is just the part that allows him to see if their intentions are malevolent or good. If they don't have a soul, then he couldn't get that aspect of the reading but, then, he would already know the answer because without a soul the answer would always be evil. Again, I'm not sure if it was fanfic, but I remember something about demon's souls being "souls" but they're just "demon souls," i.e., a different kind of soul. Maybe it was Merle who said something about it? I dunno. I'm probably hallucinating. As far as Clem and the other good demons go, it may not be due to a soul. I think it was established that not all demon species are bad. Doyle's demon species, the species of demon that Harriett was engaged to was supposedly not bad (just with old, questionable rituals), etc. Perhaps the good demons are hybrids. The Scourge was all about getting rid of the hybrids so maybe that's it. Except Vampires are considered hybrids and they're not on the good side so I guess that theory's shot. iz puzzled Spike might be the missing link. He did good without a soul, so it seems the mythology was heading toward the belief that demons don't need souls to be good, they can just choose to be. The soul is merely the conscience that causes guilt in species that have them if they do something bad. So it's easier to be good with a soul since you have that constant beating of guilt every time you do something evil. So, in reality, a demon that does good by choice is actually better than a being with a soul because the demon doesn't have a crutch that forces it to be good. __________________ Deb ~ Bark/Angel Chipper/Shipper C/A Stillness - Non-Animated Icon Challenge Community devoted to Cordy and Angel David Stillness - Non-animated Icon Challenge Community for David Boreanaz Bones Hush - Textless Icon Challenge Community for the show Bones Nonna Rosina Productions

01-19-2008, 09:42 PM	#5
Livvie nutcase Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seventh Ring of Hell Posts: 1,108	Mike and I were talking about it this morning for a while and we came to one consensus... We couldn't think of evidence either way. He said that he thought Angel told Kate that demons didn't have souls but had degrees of evil from none to evil evil. I haven't tried to look that up yet to see. I am really horrible at remembering dialogue sometimes. It could have just been bad writing too. Something they didn't bother to address. I don't know, I feel...bad I guess if Lorne didn't have a soul. But you could argue the old addage that music comes from the soul sooo...I don't know. I think it is just confusing all around to be honest. __________________ "No regrets. That is what I say. That and everybody Wang Chung tonight" -Out Cold "I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa

01-19-2008, 11:17 PM	#7
Dannyblue a.k.a. Danielle Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,147	I don't think it was ever stated that all demons didn't have souls. And I don't think a creature has to be soulless to be evil. There have been some pretty evil humans who (as far as anyone knows) had souls. Vampires are special as far as demons go because they were human, so their souls were human. Before getting vamped, they had to deal with the same morals, and guilt, and a conscious, and all that other stuff, that any other human does. If vamps didn't lose their souls, some would embrace evil (because they were not-so-nice people to begin with), but others would...well, be like Angel. Maybe not with the brooding, but with trying to find ways to survive without killing, because their human souls would tear them up with guilt if they did anything else. But, even if an "evil" demon has a soul, it's not a human soul, and probably isn't guided by the same morals, etc., as a humans soul is. So I think demons could have what we'd consider a soul and still be plenty evil because, to them, doing things we'd consider evil probably wouldn't be seen as bad, or wrong, or things to feel guilty about. Does a lion feel bad about stalking and killing weaker prey? Heck, do humans feel bad when we eat chicken or beef? And I kinda wish I hadn't thought of that last one. __________________ IMAGIC. My LiveJournal, where you'll find my fanfiction, fanart, etc.

01-19-2008, 10:47 PM	#6
samsmom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California Posts: 713	Well, you know. Joss did say continuity was for pu**ies. So there you go. Demons were soulless things when it served the storyline, and mostly when Giles made that speech in the pilot to Xander about vampires, they didn't know that Spike was going to come along and bullocks it all up. AtS was supposed to be more adult, more grey. Evil was a law firm full of human beings supported by The Senior Partners and there were demons like Doyle and that poor Slurpee drinking demon in the sewers in That Old Gang of Mine who were harmless or productive members of society. So I think the idea of demons having souls changed season to season, writer to writer. Whatever served the storyline.