Why?

[mph0506]

I liked Season 5 of Angel. It certainly lacked some of its shine, without Cordy, but I think it actually heralded back to Angel's real theme-- "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"-- in a way that neither Season 3 or Season 4 ever did. I don't believe Angel's character was destroyed, just changed, in a way that reflected what he (and other characters, like Wesley) had endured over the last few years. I will agree about Season 3, though-- Angel was terribly inconsistent, character-wise, throughout the whole thing. I do appreciate Wesley's arc, though, betrayal through loyalty; it says so much about the Wesley and Angel relationship, and just.. guh.

Regarding Spike, while I don't think he was necessary to the series, I do think he was used pretty effectively. Angel had lost faith; Spike, having just recently put down the First, was feeling the draw of being a hero. He was a good foil for Angel, especially in episodes like "Soul Purpose" and "Destiny." Spike, like he did over on Buffy before he became so maudlin, can be great when used to illuminate things about other character's. Much like Cordelia.

And Cordy's character assassination? I think it's the worse because she became, even to me, an unbearable character who lost everything that made her what she was. It was, as Joss said, like they had just run out of ideas of what to do with her, that her big character development was in "To Shanshu in LA" and that was that. And it's evident: if you look at Season 2, Cordelia really doesn't grow that much. In fact, she doesn't ever really grow. Instead, in Season 3, she morphs into this selfless, boring shell of what she used to be.

It bothers me because of all the lost potential. The visions? That could've been a multi-episode arc of resentment, anger, pain-- all of Joss' specialties-- instead of the one-shot deus ex machina of "Birthday," who's major points were never really explained. I think Cordelia going evil could have been awesome, too, if it had been done better. Then there could be a whole next season arc dealing with the fallout of that. There's just so many better routes which could've been taken, rather than one filled with lazy writing and distant dreams of cowboys running around in outer space. Not that I hate Serenity, because I don't.

I didn't mean to say that much. But I think Cordelia and Spike both suffered in the same way, that is, that they were forced into stereotypical roles of self-sacrifice and heroism in order to properly "fit" with their perspective romantic interests. It's a cheap move, and as much as I love C/A, what we got when they actually began hinting at romance is not even close to what I imagine C/A really being like.

[jerkstore]

Originally Posted by Dannyblue

I agree with those who thought the characters on both AtS and BtVS were badly handled in the later seasons. The major difference for me is that, by their respective finales, I still cared about the AtS characters, while I couldn't care less about the BtVS characters. But I still cared about the BtVS characters in that show's season 5 too, so who knows. Maybe, if given two more seasons, I would've lost all connection to the AtS characters, too.

I think a big part of the problem was that both shows seemed to be less about the characters, and more about doing "cool" things that were "shocking" and "dark." Shocking and dark can be good. But, too often, the shocks ended up hurting the characters more than anything else. In fact, it was all the "shocking" things the characters on BtVS did in seasons 6 and 7 that made me dislike them so much.

I'm with you Dannyblue. Joss lost sight of who the characters were and turned both shows into 'look at what disgusting, degrading thing I can get away with now!'

AFAIC, ATS ended when Connor killed Jasmine and everything from Home on was a nightmare of Angel's. Otherwise, I'd have to believe that these champions willingly sold out to Evil, Inc. for tech toys, social status and access to celebrities and that they all turned into idiots who, if the S6 comics are to be considered canon, played right into the Senior Partners' hands and caused an apocolypse.

[jean-vic]

How was Season 3 poor and how did Cordelia not develop? Cordelia did develop a lot. She went from bitch who didn't much care to a bitch who cared because of the visions. Then she gradually lost that over Season 2 and it culminated in Season 3 when she chose her life with Angel over celebrity status. Maybe they should have killed her after that. Maybe they should have ended it in Season 3 for her and saved all the misery.

I can see why Angel is like he is in Season 5. He's lost Connor and he's lost Cordelia. He even tells her she is the reason he is the way he is. I also believe that she and Connor are the reason that Angel lost in Destiny. He had no one left to fight for and he no longer believed in the shanshu. You can't win a prize you don't believe in. So I can see it but they took it a bit too far with Angel killing innocent people like Drogyn to stop the SPs. That wasn't Angel. Angel would rather die than kill an innocent for a fight he knew he couldn't win. Angel, at first, was about saving individual souls. By the end of Season 5 he was about a mad mission to destroy the enemy. Season 2 anyone?

[mph0506]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

How was Season 3 poor and how did Cordelia not develop?

It isn't that I think Season 3 was poor, exactly, I just feel some characterization was lost in order to forward the storylines the writers were going for-- much like samsom said, above. Except put much more clearly.

And with regards to Cordy, I had read somewhere that Joss mentioned that the end of "To Shanshu in LA" was Cordy's big moment-- it was her recognizing the visions and vowing to help people. And I don't think she ever really lost that, again, not even in Season 2. For example, Cordelia is the one who wants to keep helping the innocent even after Angel runs off to chase Darla and W&H. In fact, out of all the characters, Cordelia and Gunn are the only two who never waver in their devotion to helping people.

My problem with Season 3 is that her selflessness became too prominent, you know, until she was a carbon-copy Cordy meant to fill the role of Angel's romantic heroine. Cordelia and Angel had such potential, and instead, ME chose to take her down the route of martyrdom and into the doomed realm of Buffy/Angel. I loved Cordy because, despite being deeply invested in the mission, she never lost herself in it. By the end of S3, she had become this saint, rising to the higher realms shrouded in white. And, before that, resigned to her fate of death by the visions.

And with Angel, I see exactly what you're saying, and I kind of think that's what ME was going for. I believe that in the end, Angel had pretty much slipped off the reservation, or was at least about to. You're right: he had lost the mission, and I think he lost it because of everything that happened to him. He was on the downward spiral, and by the end, couldn't see anything beyond the big picture. It isn't the Angel I loved, that's true, but it's an Angel I could see developing. Doyle and Cordy and Fred and Connor and Darla-- they all add up, particularly when you're indirectly responsible or at least deeply involved in each death. I think Angel just wanted to die at that point, to be finished, and wanted to try and at least do some good while he was at it. Even if it did cost everyone their lives.

I'm not trying to step on toes here! I love Cordy and Angel-- they will ALWAYS be my favorites-- in any and every form, but even more than that, I love them together. Now I want to go write S3.

[samsmom]

You're not stepping on toes, mph. Not at all. And I agree with you on a lot of points.

[jean-vic]

Didn't step on my toes. Just wanted to know your reasoning for those opinions. But hey, opinions are opinions.

Some people say that all that selflessness was very Cordy. I have read people saying that she became arrogant with her role and that was why she went to the higher plane. She acted like it was a selfless thing, but the smile and the short decision says all to some people. She became too good, if you get me, and was using it the wrong way, loved the power she held and the influence she could use in the battle against evil.

I don't personally believe that though. I just believe she grew up and saw the big picture and how insignificant her wants and needs were. She was, at that time, very mch like Angel in my eyes while retaining what made her Cordelia.

[Luna]

Though I didn´t want Cordy to die at all, I think it would have been better if she had died in Birthday, getting killed by the visions. At least her character couldn´t have been destroyed anymore. But maybe she was already possessed by Jasmine when she had become part demon, so the vision coma in Birthday had never really ended, it was just the demon in her that kept her awake and alive. When Jasmine was out of her, she was in a coma again and the last vision in You´re Welcome had finally killed her and her spirit could return to Angel one last time.