B/A dilemma - Page 5

argel · 08-10-2005, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

Yet, I bet you give him no credit for creating a character like Cordelia? Or the other characters.

He may have created her, but he wasn't responsible for the growth and substance that made her who she really was. I credit people like David Greenwalt (who I've always said understood Cordelia better than anyone else at ME) for that.

Quote:

This site doesnt seem too keen on Joss.

You're quick.

Were you aiming for Whedonesque and got here by mistake?

***argel***

brownsbros3 · 08-10-2005, 08:32 AM

To give credit where credit is due, none of us would be here had Joss not created BTVS and then later ATS. Has he written an directed some of the best episodes on both shows? Yes. He has a large cultlike following.

My problems with him are threefold.
1.) In most of the interviews I've read with him, he takes all of the credit for the series success, and is quick to place the failure at the feet of others. He's quick to forget that he didn't do it all himself, though it sounds like that is what he'd want us to believe.

2.) He chose not to bring back the second most associated character with ATS (Cordelia) for its fifth and what would turn out to be last season. Charisma was there with David since the beginning, and deserved to be there in the end. Had she chosen to leave on her own, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but the way they just unceremoniously dumped her was wrong.

3.) The lack of continuity in seasons four and five. When Greenwalt was running the show in the first three seasons, whether we liked the direction or not, the action still flowed from one episode to the next. In season four, Greenwalt left after a dispute with Fox (who distributed the show), and Whedon brought in his own yes-men. I routinely got headaches from trying to figure out what was going on. Season five was an improvement, but still was nowhere near the first three seasons.

TeSjah · 08-10-2005, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

2.) He chose not to bring back the second most associated character with ATS (Cordelia) for its fifth and what would turn out to be last season. Charisma was there with David since the beginning, and deserved to be there in the end. Had she chosen to leave on her own, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but the way they just unceremoniously dumped her was wrong.

Plus the fact that he didn't even phone her when she got fired.

SamIAm · 08-10-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeSjah

Plus the fact that he didn't even phone her when she got fired.

And he has yet to say anything in public that could even be misconstrued as thanks for a job well done.

You're Welcome · 08-10-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argel

He may have created her, but he wasn't responsible for the growth and substance that made her who she really was. I credit people like David Greenwalt (who I've always said understood Cordelia better than anyone else at ME) for that.

You're quick.

Hilarious, I'm about to burst into a fit of laughter any day now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by argel

Were you aiming for Whedonesque and got here by mistake?

***argel***

...
I came here because it was a site based solely for Cordelia lovin'. After a quick read I thought the posters here seemed quite adult and made sensible posts. I didn't expect to find hypocrisy and retardedness from the general consensus. Though this seems the substandard for all fansites of either show.

Helen · 08-10-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

I didn't expect to find hypocrisy and retardedness from the general consensus. Though this seems the substandard for all fansites of either show.

Yeesh, how dare anyone hold a different set of opinions than you. I happen to be very content holding a low one of Joss and that's my perogative.

Talk about wearing out your name fast.

writingpathways · 08-10-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

No one's ever said David Greenwalt was God that I know of. He can write a stupid line now and then just like every writer. But, for the most part, Greenwalt was better at keeping characters consistent and having the storylines flow from the characters instead of making the characters fit into a story they wanted to tell. Joss is notorious for doing the latter and freely admitted he doesn't care so much about consistency in characters or plot.

So, even if Greenwalt wrote that one line (and he did direct "The Girl in Question" so - duh!Not Perfect!), he still rates well above Joss on the talent scale in my book just for this reason. Then there's the evidence that Ats was doing reasonably well in S1-3 while Greenwalt was there and hit the crapper in S4 and S5 when he wasn't - just for example.

Didn't he also have a hand in the script for I Will Remember You -- the guy does like the meladrama a bit, but he also knew when it went a bit over board.

Actually in the commentary for the episode with the atrocious "When I kiss you I want to die," he said he thought it was a bit too much at first, but Joss LOVED it. So there you go.

Personally, my favorite Cordelia writer is actually David Fury. Every Fury episode written has great Cordy.

angdelia · 08-10-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

I came here because it was a site based solely for Cordelia lovin'. After a quick read I thought the posters here seemed quite adult and made sensible posts.

Funny, cuz it's the first time I read immature posts like yours on this board.

Quote:

Giant cancer???

Go kill yourself?

Adult and sensible, huh?

psychofilly · 08-10-2005, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

...
I came here because it was a site based solely for Cordelia lovin'. After a quick read I thought the posters here seemed quite adult and made sensible posts. I didn't expect to find hypocrisy and retardedness from the general consensus. Though this seems the substandard for all fansites of either show.

And the people here *do* love Cordelia and Charisma, so it's not like we pulled a bait and switch.

Considering she was fired from the show after a general decline in her character arc and rumored bad treatment on set, the only thing I'm surprised about is that you thought you'd find a bunch of Wedonite ass kissing going on here. Unless you weren't aware of the tension between her and Mutant Enemy. In that case, consider this an education.

It's neither hypocrisy nor retarded to be able to acknowledge a shows flaws along with it's writers and creators shortcomings as well as their strengths. Unfortunately on both ATS and BTVS, the last couple of seasons produced episodes that made many characters act unlikeable and/or too stupid to live, and plots that overall didn't engage many viewers. Despite brief flashes of greatness, overall the arcs didn't hold up under logical scrutiny.

So sorry if that offends your Whedonass kissing sensibilities.

You're Welcome · 08-10-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angdelia

Funny, cuz it's the first time I read immature posts like yours on this board.

Adult and sensible, huh?

I didnt say I was adult and sensible.

You're Welcome · 08-10-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

And the people here *do* love Cordelia and Charisma, so it's not like we pulled a bait and switch.

Considering she was fired from the show after a general decline in her character arc and rumored bad treatment on set, the only thing I'm surprised about is that you thought you'd find a bunch of Wedonite ass kissing going on here. Unless you weren't aware of the tension between her and Mutant Enemy. In that case, consider this an education.

It's neither hypocrisy nor retarded to be able to acknowledge a shows flaws along with it's writers and creators shortcomings as well as their strengths. Unfortunately on both ATS and BTVS, the last couple of seasons produced episodes that made many characters act unlikeable and/or too stupid to live, and plots that overall didn't engage many viewers. Despite brief flashes of greatness, overall the arcs didn't hold up under logical scrutiny.

So sorry if that offends your Whedonass kissing sensibilities.

Whedonass kissing sensibilites??? Why because I said I didn't understand why everyone blames him. I have no idea what happened behind the scenes on Angel. I only know what I know. CC was interested in the WW part, wasnt she? Well If she and Joss did not get along, why would she even go for the part? Its funny that people comment on Joss blaming others for the fallings on his shows. When Buffy fans blame Noxon, Angel fans blame Joss, and no one blames it on poor performances on the part of the actors.

writingpathways · 08-10-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

Whedonass kissing sensibilites??? Why because I said I didn't understand why everyone blames him. I have no idea what happened behind the scenes on Angel. I only know what I know. CC was interested in the WW part, wasnt she? Well If she and Joss did not get along, why would she even go for the part? Its funny that people comment on Joss blaming others for the fallings on his shows. When Buffy fans blame Noxon, Angel fans blame Joss, and no one blames it on poor performances on the part of the actors.

Charisma was interested in doing WW WAY before Joss Whedon was ever associated with the script.

Also:

I had an edit to my earlier post that wouldn't post for some reason. It was all about the definition of hypocrisy and how here no main poster is ever hypocrital. Here we are Blunt, Honest and Tactless at times, i.e: We are Cordelia.

But we don't do hypocrisy. Also I would just like to point You're Welcome to again read Psychofilly's post and Cordy's Bitch below. ;-)

Cordy's Bitch · 08-10-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

...
I came here because it was a site based solely for Cordelia lovin'. After a quick read I thought the posters here seemed quite adult and made sensible posts. I didn't expect to find hypocrisy and retardedness from the general consensus. Though this seems the substandard for all fansites of either show.

I have a few reactions:

1) Retardedness - Not a word. Even if it was, "retarded" means "slowed", not unintelligent or unthinking. I would rather respond in a "retarded" way rather than in a way that displays rank immaturity, lack of cogent thought, or truculent confrontationalism.

2) You've yet to show one example of our supposed hypocrisy. Enjoying a television show isn't an all or nothing endeavor. I don't have to like everything about a show, or even about a person. Having a critical nature is highly preferable in my opinion to blind sychophancy.

3) We do love Cordelia. We love Charisma. And she knows it.

ETA: Why I blame Joss - It's a simple reason, really. These shows were his shows. Their quality, for good or bad, ultimately was his responsibility. And he let it slide into disrepair. That's why I blame Joss. Do I stay up nights, poking pins in my Joss voodoo doll? No. I've better things to do. But if someone asks my opinion, there it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

I have no idea what happened behind the scenes on Angel. I only know what I know.

Then you'll understand that opinions can change on the basis of that knowledge.

Kit · 08-10-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by You're Welcome

I didn't expect to find hypocrisy and retardedness from the general consensus.

And,

Quote:

I didnt say I was adult and sensible.

So far, the only person who's showing any hyprocrisy is you.

Quote:

When Buffy fans blame Noxon, Angel fans blame Joss, and no one blames it on poor performances on the part of the actors.

How is it the actors' fault when they were given crappy material? Besides, most of the actors and actresses on ATS did an amazing job despite all the character inconsistencies and bad storytelling.

You're Welcome · 08-10-2005, 12:07 PM

So what happened behind the scenes then? How was Charisma mistreated? And is there actual proof or is this just heresay?

08-10-2005, 12:07 PM	#75
You're Welcome Concorde crashes into LA Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: None of your business. Posts: 25	So what happened behind the scenes then? How was Charisma mistreated? And is there actual proof or is this just heresay? __________________ Joss: I don't want the giant ego. I don't want to become Kevin Costner, singing on the soundtrack to The Postman. Connor: Its a lie, you can't be saved by a lie. Joss: I like characters more than plots. (Though I demand plots) Cordy:You're a lot smarter than you look! 'Course, you look like a retard. I hate Joss to...honest.

08-10-2005, 08:32 AM	#62
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	To give credit where credit is due, none of us would be here had Joss not created BTVS and then later ATS. Has he written an directed some of the best episodes on both shows? Yes. He has a large cultlike following. My problems with him are threefold. 1.) In most of the interviews I've read with him, he takes all of the credit for the series success, and is quick to place the failure at the feet of others. He's quick to forget that he didn't do it all himself, though it sounds like that is what he'd want us to believe. 2.) He chose not to bring back the second most associated character with ATS (Cordelia) for its fifth and what would turn out to be last season. Charisma was there with David since the beginning, and deserved to be there in the end. Had she chosen to leave on her own, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but the way they just unceremoniously dumped her was wrong. 3.) The lack of continuity in seasons four and five. When Greenwalt was running the show in the first three seasons, whether we liked the direction or not, the action still flowed from one episode to the next. In season four, Greenwalt left after a dispute with Fox (who distributed the show), and Whedon brought in his own yes-men. I routinely got headaches from trying to figure out what was going on. Season five was an improvement, but still was nowhere near the first three seasons.