AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[Emmangel]

Originally Posted by angelfan5589

CC got pregnat so the writers had to change season 4.

Well, they didn't actually. With so many shows able to hid and work around a pregnant actress, I still don't see any reason whey they couldn't have done the same here. After all, the 'hid' it most of the season anyway.

And if they did have to write it in... well, frankly I can think of a million better ways to do it than the route they went.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by angelfan5589

CC got pregnat so the writers had to change season 4. We're here to carry on the C/A ship

I see you believe the BS that was put out there as an excuse for the mess of S4. It truly is classless of the writers to blame "the pregnant actress" for their failure.

Any writer worth their salt could have handled her pregnancy a hundred times better than ME did. They could have gone with the original storyline and pre-shot scenes involving Cordy and Angel fighting or used a body double for any fighting she would have to do late in the season and just hid the pregnancy like every other show out there.

Or, imagine this, they don't hide it and don't mention it! We're not morons. We can figure out the "actress" is pregnant and not the "character." And if there are actually people out there who couldn't figure that out, they could have been really original and run a disclaimer like "The character of Cordelia Chase is not pregnant. The cast and crew of Angel would like to congratulate Charisma Carpenter and her husband who are expecting their first child."

They didn't have to humiliate her in that whore's outfit and make her expose her stomach and smear blood on it. They didn't have to make her wear spiked heels and walk down metal steps 8 months pregnant. Those actions were taken by spineless, uncreative miscreants who should never work with human beings again.

Sorry for the rant, but anytime I hear that ME line of crap about blaming CC's pregnancy for the storyline I have to try to set the record straight.

[samsmom]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

I see you believe the BS that was put out there as an excuse for the mess of S4. It truly is classless of the writers to blame "the pregnant actress" for their failure.

Any writer worth their salt could have handled her pregnancy a hundred times better than ME did. They could have gone with the original storyline and pre-shot scenes involving Cordy and Angel fighting or used a body double for any fighting she would have to do late in the season and just hid the pregnancy like every other show out there.

Or, imagine this, they don't hide it and don't mention it! We're not morons. We can figure out the "actress" is pregnant and not the "character." And if there are actually people out there who couldn't figure that out, they could have been really original and run a disclaimer like "The character of Cordelia Chase is not pregnant. The cast and crew of Angel would like to congratulate Charisma Carpenter and her husband who are expecting their first child."

They didn't have to humiliate her in that whore's outfit and make her expose her stomach and smear blood on it. They didn't have to make her wear spiked heels and walk down metal steps 8 months pregnant. Those actions were taken by spineless, uncreative miscreants who should never work with human beings again.

Sorry for the rant, but anytime I hear that ME line of crap about blaming CC's pregnancy for the storyline I have to try to set the record straight.

:ounds the war drums::

Sing it baby!

The actress who played Xena got pregnant, and hey whaddaya know?? They worked with it - she even had a leather maternity outfit. If Joss could rip the musical episode from them, then ME should have gotten some ideas on how to handle a pregnant actress from them too.

Amy Acker got pregnant right after Ats wrapped but if the show were renewed for a sixth season, I wonder how they would have handled *her*pregnancy - considering that she was playing a "God-King" at the time. Would they have blamed her for unimaginative, character assassinating plot ideas, then wrote her into a coma?

/rant

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Amy Acker got pregnant right after Ats wrapped but if the show were renewed for a sixth season, I wonder how they would have handled *her*pregnancy - considering that she was playing a "God-King" at the time. Would they have blamed her for unimaginative, character assassinating plot ideas, then wrote her into a coma?

/rant

Take this with a grain of salt because the source may or may not be accurate.

That being said, rumor has it that when JW heard Amy was pregnant, the first words out of his mouth were "Good thing we didn't get picked up. Nobody wants to see Illyria hauling around a beach ball" to a crew member.

If it is true, I think it is very telling towards the man's character towards women and towards pregnancy. I think despite being his "friend" Amy would have gotten the same treatment that CC did. I see a lot of purposeful abuse towards not only CC but to Cordy as well, as Deb as so beautifully pointed out.

[samsmom]

Cordy's been especially abused since Ats started. Violation is a theme with her. The visions are forced painfully into her head, she was violated by Wilson Christopher in the first season, and the Skilosh Demons in the second season - when she yells 'no don't, no please don't' while the Skilosh extends his tongue and penetrates her skull, I get sqeamish - and she very nearly got violated in Pylea, because I had the feeling if Groo wasn't so willing, he'd have been helped by the priests. Then of course there's ME's brilliant S4 arc which was essentially a season long rape, with the added benefit of sleeping with Connor against her will.

Joss abused Cordelia in a way that Willow, Buffy or Fred *never* got abused.

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Joss abused Cordelia in a way that Willow, Buffy or Fred *never* got abused.

Oh, sister, don't get me started. Do not. (Seriously. No one wants that.)

Suffice it to say that I think of Little Joe as being just like Alfred Hitchcock, without the looks or charm.

[angelfan5589]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Cordy's been especially abused since Ats started. Violation is a theme with her. The visions are forced painfully into her head, she was violated by Wilson Christopher in the first season, and the Skilosh Demons in the second season - when she yells 'no don't, no please don't' while the Skilosh extends his tongue and penetrates her skull, I get sqeamish - and she very nearly got violated in Pylea, because I had the feeling if Groo wasn't so willing, he'd have been helped by the priests. Then of course there's ME's brilliant S4 arc which was essentially a season long rape, with the added benefit of sleeping with Connor against her will.

Joss abused Cordelia in a way that Willow, Buffy or Fred *never* got abused.

I agree Cordelia was so taken for granted. They should have done something different in S4 it just PMO!!!!!!!!!!! She shouldnt have been written out like that cuz shes better than that. The writers were so unimaginative with the way S4 went. The CC fans were totally spitting mad when S4 came out.

[samsmom]

Originally Posted by Penny Century

Oh, sister, don't get me started. Do not. (Seriously. No one wants that.)

I double dog dare ya!

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by samsmom

I double dog dare ya!

You want a full-on screeching dudgeon about Cordy's mistreatment? Mind you, I've had a lot of practice. These can last days. You'd better get snacks.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Joss abused Cordelia in a way that Willow, Buffy or Fred *never* got abused.

Well of course, because Willow and Fred were basically self-inserts. The ultimate in Mary Sues. Just look at what happens to anyone who hurts Willow during BTVS. It never ends pretty. And to an extent, the same with Fred. Both of those characters, by the shows' ends, were either goddess (Willow) or god (Illyria).

Buffy couldn't take as much abuse as Cordelia for the simple fact that the audience wouldn't have stood for it. I think he was more concerned about his fanbase in regards to treatment of Buffy. She did get some abuse, I am not discounted that. But you are correct, in no extent to the way Cordelia suffered.

Everyone always talks about how JW is so empowering towards women but his shows speak exactly the opposite. Instead of using their sexuality as a means of power, the women are punished for being anything other than the sainted virgins. Anyone who was not the archetype of the kind of quiet nerd was fodder for abuse and poorly written storylines that destroyed all hope of the character.

As I said before, I think JW puts far too much of his own personal issues and vendettas into his shows. It is clear that he was the outcasted nerdy kid at his school and Buffy was a great vehicle for getting back at the popular people. I know we had a brief discussion to this extent over on LJ, Sam, but I think it is important to bring up here as well.

To be completely honest, I am actually glad that we are discussing this. It might have been discussed a thousand times before but we do have new people to the fandom that join this board every week. I also think that as we all get older, get new interests, our interpretations of things are different. These sort of discussions always give me a new insight so thank you to everyone.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by Penny Century

You want a full-on screeching dudgeon about Cordy's mistreatment? Mind you, I've had a lot of practice. These can last days. You'd better get snacks.

I second this! What sort of snacks do you like? I have some beers cooling in the fridge.

[samsmom]

Penny, I wasn't online during the 'dark times'. I felt everything ya'll were feeling but never got to commiserate or vent or anything.

I need validation. So does Livvie.

::lines up the snacks and settles in::

Fire away!

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Penny, I wasn't online during the 'dark times'. I felt everything ya'll were feeling but never got to commiserate or vent or anything.

I need validation. So does Livvie.

::lines up the snacks and settles in::

Fire away!

Yeeeeeeees!

Until this board, I never even knew what shipping was or that you could even ship a couple. Hell, I barely knew that people gathered to discuss things like this. I realize that was just being blind on my part, and I am okay to admit that. LOL

[samsmom]

Originally Posted by Livvie

Well of course, because Willow and Fred were basically self-inserts. The ultimate in Mary Sues. Just look at what happens to anyone who hurts Willow during BTVS. It never ends pretty. And to an extent, the same with Fred. Both of those characters, by the shows' ends, were either goddess (Willow) or god (Illyria).

Buffy couldn't take as much abuse as Cordelia for the simple fact that the audience wouldn't have stood for it. I think he was more concerned about his fanbase in regards to treatment of Buffy. She did get some abuse, I am not discounted that. But you are correct, in no extent to the way Cordelia suffered.

Everyone always talks about how JW is so empowering towards women but his shows speak exactly the opposite. Instead of using their sexuality as a means of power, the women are punished for being anything other than the sainted virgins. Anyone who was not the archetype of the kind of quiet nerd was fodder for abuse and poorly written storylines that destroyed all hope of the character.

As I said before, I think JW puts far too much of his own personal issues and vendettas into his shows. It is clear that he was the outcasted nerdy kid at his school and Buffy was a great vehicle for getting back at the popular people. I know we had a brief discussion to this extent over on LJ, Sam, but I think it is important to bring up here as well.

To be completely honest, I am actually glad that we are discussing this. It might have been discussed a thousand times before but we do have new people to the fandom that join this board every week. I also think that as we all get older, get new interests, our interpretations of things are different. These sort of discussions always give me a new insight so thank you to everyone.

Not so sure Joss wasn't a complete sh** towards his titular character. I always thought Joss was emotionally abusive towards Buffy. Cordelia's abuse was sexual and physical. The only ones left relatively untouched was Fred and Willow. Fred gets terrorized by men during Billy and gets to turn the tables and be triumphant. Cordy had to be saved. And you pretty much hit the nail on the head with Willow, if you're mean to her, it means your EVIL. That's the signifier. Willow kills a man and gets a free pass, Cordy tries to do the right thing and she gets punished for it.

Grrr.

[Emmangel]

Originally Posted by Penny Century

You want a full-on screeching dudgeon about Cordy's mistreatment? Mind you, I've had a lot of practice. These can last days. You'd better get snacks.

Aww come on. We could have one of our internet famous parties! Full of buzz words and catchphrases!

All 15 of could have a ball!