AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by Adrian_Tepes

Didn't they establish Conner was his shanshu in S5 though?

Not that I'm aware of in any canon fashion. I know people "say" that's the case as in wanking it so. If someone knows the quote that establishes this in the series, I'd be grateful to see it. If it's true, then when he signed aways his Shanshu, does that mean he signed away all rights to his son? If so, he did it pretty quickly and with no qualms about it.

[brownsbros3]

What I think Adrian maybe referring to is in "Not Fade Away" when Connor wants to stay in the fight, but Angel tells him to go home.

Connor: They're trying to kill you!
Angel: As long as you're alive, they can't.

I kind of took that to mean that if he didn't make it, that Angel hoped Connor would carry on his legacy of "fighting the good fight."

Going back to the TSILA point. In the season 2 opener, "Judgment," they figured out on their own that they shouldn't be keeping score. I thought that was the conclusion they came to. It's just something that would happen when it happens, and in the mean time they would just keep doing what they're doing.

[DamnSkippy]

If that's the quote it's based on, then sounds like fanwank to me. All that says to me is what any father would say if he were about to die. My blood flows through you, so I won't be completely dead, just mostly dead. That wasn't what Shanshu was for me so I'm not buying it. But to each their own interpretation I guess. Thanks for looking that up.

[tojoson]

i think way back in season 3, when they took the pregnant Darla to Caritas, that Wesley speculated about the baby being Angels shanshu, it was when they were discussing whether the baby would be a monster or not.

also, it bugs me,
how could the Senior Partners (through the Black Thorn) have Angel sign away the shanshu, it wasn't theirs to control, it was the Powers That Be

[writingpathways]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

If that's the quote it's based on, then sounds like fanwank to me. All that says to me is what any father would say if he were about to die. My blood flows through you, so I won't be completely dead, just mostly dead. That wasn't what Shanshu was for me so I'm not buying it. But to each their own interpretation I guess. Thanks for looking that up.

I agree, that moment in NFA was about a father telling his son, that Connor's life was what mattered and as long as Connor was safe and happy -- Angel would be fine. Undead or dead-dead. It had nothing to do with the 'shanshu'.

Of course personally, the only thing I really loved about the end was Angel signing away that Shanshu, because I never thought the show truly delved into what it could/did mean in the right fashion. They made it about a reward and always implied that Angel would turn human like he did in IWRY, and that never rang true or right to me. Especially if Shanshu was about the cycle of life...as in life and death are one thing and about rebirth and growth. Sort of like how the Tarot Card Death doesn't mean death but Change and in it's most positive form New Beginning. Plus I never understood the implication that it would/or could happen anytime soon -- there was no way Angel could reach his Shanshu in the span of the series, he was just starting his redemption. And he fell off the path how many times during the five years.

Giving up reinforced to me what he learned in 'Epiphany' S2, that it wasn't a reward, or even gaining redemption it was about doing what he felt was right -- and helping those helpless because it was the right thing to do.

The Shanshu to me was never that important, it was what Angel did before it that mattered because the possibility of it happening couldn't have been possible during the series if you face the realistic facts. I hated that they made it such a huge thread in S5, and I personally loved him signing it away.

But Connor wasn't Angel's Shanshu -- Connor was Jasmine's Pawn.

[brownsbros3]

It's interesting. Connor was known in Quortoth as the Destroyer. It turned out to be quite true. Because, the Connor character wound up (whether intentional or not) destroying the series. Had Connor not interfered maybe Angel could have stopped Cordelia's ascension. They could have gotten together. Cordy would have never had sex with Connor which created Jasmine. Angel would have never made the deal to go to Wolfram and Hart. Fred, Wesley, and Lindsey would still be alive. Spike would still be in the amulet. Gunn wouldn't be bleeding to death in an alley. Lorne wouldn't have left. All of the bad stuff that happened can either directly or indirectly traced back to him.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by writingpathways

But Connor wasn't Angel's Shanshu -- Connor was Jasmine's Pawn.

Actually, Connor was the Fonz, the motorcycle, the ramp, and the shark all rolled up into one.

[brownsbros3]

That's a great analogy LOL.

[Temujin]

Originally Posted by writingpathways

But Connor wasn't Angel's Shanshu -- Connor was Jasmine's Pawn.

Orginally, wasn't he was just bred for the express purpose of eliminating Sahjhan. Wish they would have kept him around in season 4

[brownsbros3]

That was the original reason for Sahjhan bringing Holtz into modern times. He wanted Holtz to kill Angel and Darla to prevent Connor from being born, because of there being a prophecy that Connor would be the one to kill him. In Season 5 Episode 18, "Origin," the prophecy came true.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by Temujin

Orginally, wasn't he was just bred for the express purpose of eliminating Sahjhan. Wish they would have kept him around in season 4

I wouldn't say he was "bred" for it. Killing him was just a part of his destiny, but I doubt it was the entire reason for his existence. I mean Sahjean wasn't so all powerful that someone else (or several people) couldn't have killed him. All it took was Sahjean to be distracted for a second for a totally unprepared Connor to kill him. How tough could it have been? I'd say he was "bred" because the writers were bored and couldn't think of any other reason to bring their beloved Darla back into the picture and bite Angel on the ass again.

[Temujin]

Got my wires crossed, thanks.

[JoJo]

A Few Thoughts After Watching the TNT Reruns:

1. IMO, the show was still salvagable as far along as the S4 ep with the zombie lawyers. It wasn't until after Inside Out and the Jasmine arc that Fonzie fell into the tank and was eaten by the shark. If they'd only had The Beast as the Big Bad, killed off Connor and had Cordelia undemonize herself, the show could have been saved.

2. Fred was a completely unnecessary character who received an inordinate amount of screen time. She had no skills pertaining to demonology, no strength, she didn't do a lick of work around the office, the one time she tagged along in the field (Couplet), she distracted Gunn and nearly got the client killed, in S3, whenever Angel asked her to do a little research, she wouldn't even try, she just whined 'that's Wesley's job', and in general, was a useless, whiny, moocher, who had no purpose once her role in destroying Wesley and driving him away from the team was over.

[Heresy]I wish they had developed the 'Fred has a crush in Angel' scenario, because an Angel/Fred romance would have at least given her a reason to be on the show.[/Heresy]

3. Cordelia on the other hand, wasn't just Vision Girl, or Angel's link to humanity. What struck me on rewatch, was just how much work she did around the place. Many eps had her filing, answering the phones, cleaning, thinking up promotional ideas, handling billing and collections (although I get the impression we were supposed to think the worse of Cordy for her efforts, to think of her as greedy, when in fact, she was only doing what was necessary to keep AI going). She was AI's secretary, file clerk, receptionist, billing agent, marketing department and cleaning crew all rolled into one. In short, Cordy earned her keep, while Fred mooched off Angel for years.

3. Gunn's role was to provide the muscle to keep AI going during the Beige Angel arc. Once Angel returned he had no purpose and should have been demoted to recurring character at best.

4. Wesley was a damned fool for spurning the mature, competent Lilah and pining after Fred.

5. Lilah was a damned fool for pursuing Wesley - she could have done so much better.

6. It's a shame Gunn destroyed Zombie!Gavin. I would have liked to have seen Gavin taking over LA with an army of evil undead lawyers.

[brownsbros3]

1.) no argument there

2a.) Of course, she didn't have any skills on demonology. She didn't know they existed until being sucked into Pylea.

2b.) She did work around the office. She did the math and science stuff, and set up their website. She came up with the plan to get into the museum to steal the item needed to find Cordelia in "Ground State."

2c.) What about in "Tomorrow" where she kicked one of the attackers that was going after Gunn. Or how about when she used the wriststake to dust a vamp at the beginning of "Deep Down?"

2d.) She didn't whine. She was frustrated, because the translating the demon languages was over her head. She was right. Wesley was the demon expert, not her.

3. Except for the Fred being a mooch part, no argument there.

3b.)I think Gunn by that point had become too involved with the group to go back to being just a recurring role.

4. To me Wesley and Lilah was very similar to Angel and Darla. Lilah was the last stop on Wesley's road to rock bottom. She was the enemy. He despised everything she stood for. But he figured he had nothing left, so what the hell. I don't think Wesley was ever in love with her, but I think he did feel sorry for her and wanted to save her. The problem was Lilah didn't want to be saved.

5. I always kind of wanted to see Lilah and Lindsey tell Wolfram and Hart to kiss off and go do their own thing.

6. That would have been cool.

[writingpathways]

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

1.) no argument there



2d.) She didn't whine. She was frustrated, because the translating the demon languages was over her head. She was right. Wesley was the demon expert, not her.

Oh, I have too. I just feel like ranting I guess, it's nothing about you though BB that makes me want to rant. But on your defense of Fred... it's all prespective of course but I don't agree.

Fred wasn't whiney in S3, but in S4 when they expanded her role more and more and more to make what truly was an unnesscessary character neccessary because they liked her (no show I know plays favorites like this one, lol) Fred became a whiner.

She started taking over for Cordy (the disappearance, the amnesia, the possession) but she couldn't do it without whining. When did we ever see Cordelia Chase whine. She complained but with spunk and in a way that told you she was just ranting but that she loved who she was, what she did. Fred, she shouts at Dennis that Cordy isn'tcoming back because she can't deal. She whines at Gunn about everything she has to do, the bills, this, that, Connor, Angel, Cordelia, whine, whine, whine. Cordelia wouldn't have fallen apart. She does whine she can't do Wesley's job, but does do it. One bright spot of Season Five (until her deathbed scene when she became whiney again) was Fred did stop whining.

But she was whiney, in that Buffy whiney way I could never stand. Eeew.