08-29-2005, 01:40 PM | #16 |
*My* Angel eats nuns.
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Exactly, if we had gotten a real payoff for Cordelia's "evil" arc, then today I might not have had much problem with it, even though AN was one of the few episodes ever that made me so
The thing is, for me, from the moment Cordelia was demonized, the PTB's started glossing over the consequences, taking shortcuts with the story and ignoring the threads they had already set up... Remember the surround sound visions, Cordy missing signifigant clues about her friends behavior? I thought they were trying to show that Cordy was breaking with reality, possibly going to be driven insane a la Birthday!Angel. Turns out it meant nothing. After Inside Out, it turns out whole chunks of continuity and plot meant nothing. When I really thought about it and went back, Birthday and the episodes following it is when they really broke the contract with us, the audience. Where there good episodes after that? Sure, all through four and five there were some great episodes mixed in with the duds. But on the whole, it never reached the greatness of what came before.
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"Great, now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day." (Cordy) "They say that inside every fat woman there is a skinny woman just waiting to get out...well, I ate that bitch." |
08-29-2005, 05:09 PM | #17 | |
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08-29-2005, 06:13 PM | #18 | |||
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08-29-2005, 06:26 PM | #19 | |
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The same when she had that vision in Tomorrow, after Groo's departure when she sees herself, with her white dress and thinks it's hint about loving Angel, when really (if you see the episode again) what Astral Cordy says is exactly what she says to Skip after that. It was a warning (even Minear says that). So she missed or failed to see Wes, Lilah there (and that the girl was Justine), Holtz watching Angel and Connor, and not understanding what the vision about herself was. |
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08-29-2005, 06:48 PM | #20 |
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Oh okay ... I see where you are heading now. I am shocked that this fact eluded me lol. I guess I just assumed that the visions weren't that exact .. and Holtz, Lilah and Wes weren't exactley in line of vision and Cordy didn't know Justine, except someone would have shown her a photo. But I see now that it can be taken as a hint that the powers were even betraying her then or that she missed important clues the powers sended her.
About the Cordy talking to herself scene: I always had the theory that this particularly vision was send to her by the powers to be (mis)interpreted exactley as she did to give her a strong reason (the realisation of her love for Angel) NOT to fall for the ascension gig Skip is offering her. But unfortunately it didn't work /sigh. But anyways that still doesn't explain that she missed clues in her friends behaviour but only that she might have missed clues in her visions. |
08-29-2005, 07:23 PM | #21 |
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BTVS I would say jumped the shark after season 3. from what I've heard season 4 was blah with the Initiave storyline and the suddenly Willow is gay thing. Plus I heard season 5 was also pretty blah was the whole guess what Buffy has a sister.
ATS, contrary to popular opinion I really liked season 4, and would have loved a resolution in season 5 big Angel/Cordy love, but season 5 I think jumped the shark with the loss of CC & Cordy, and season 4 I supposed because of the lack of non coma Cordy towards the end of 4. |
08-29-2005, 08:57 PM | #22 | |||
*My* Angel eats nuns.
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While I think there were some totally powerfull kick ass episodes and mini-arcs after Birthday, the ones you mentioned and at times in season 4 & 5, the story overall never held up for me. Just because I felt for Angel's situation, and was totally rivited to several episodes, the Holtz resolution, the ascension, Cordy's and Angel's almost pathological denial... then the execution of season four with the fact that W&H were able to corrupt everybody? From Birthday on (for me) it was never as satisfying as it was before.
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"Great, now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day." (Cordy) "They say that inside every fat woman there is a skinny woman just waiting to get out...well, I ate that bitch." Last edited by psychofilly; 08-29-2005 at 08:59 PM. |
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08-29-2005, 10:39 PM | #23 | ||
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Has anyone written a fic where Groo was sent by Jasmine to get Cordy out of the picture so Connor could be kidnapped and get him into another dimension for his growth spurt? I know I've read fics where Groo turns out evil later, but none where he was part of the plan to begin with. |
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08-30-2005, 03:21 AM | #24 |
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I see your points. I have never given the change of the visions so much thought I admit.
On some points though I wouldn't lay blame to Cordys feet. Even fair Cordelia isn't perfect. Missing Gunns attraction to Fres for example. While Wes confided with her about his feelings Gunn kept it more to himself. And Gunn tried to break up with Fred in Double or Nothing to protect her from Jenoff, the SoulSucker, not because of something Cordy said. The thing that bugs me a lot more than Cordy being less observant in the 2nd half of S3 is that Angel actually BELIEVED Cordelia would sleep with Connor. While one would easily be able to miss Cordys slightly changed accuracy towards the visions in S3, I never got why nobody of team AI got a clue about Cordy not being Cordy in S4. That made absolutely no sense to me. The same goes for everybody joining W&H in a heartbeat in Home. |
08-31-2005, 09:15 PM | #25 |
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I think that instance he was too shocked at what he saw to think rationally. If I was a singled dad, got remarried, and then came home to find my teenage son having sex with my new wife, I wouldn't be very rational in that situation. I probably wouldn't even think to call Jerry Springer and cash in.
The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil. As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared. |
08-31-2005, 10:29 PM | #26 | |
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08-31-2005, 11:02 PM | #27 | |
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08-31-2005, 11:02 PM | #28 | |
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"Ever heard this story? There once was a tiger-striped cat. This cat...died a million deaths, revived and lived a million lives. And he was owned by various people who he didn't really care for. The cat wasn't afraid to die. Then one day, the cat became a stray cat, which meant he was free. He met a white female cat. And the two of them spent their days together happily. Well, years passed and the white cat grew weak and died of old age. The tiger-striped cat cried a million times and then he died, too. Except this time, he didn't come back to life." -Spike |
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08-31-2005, 11:04 PM | #29 | |
Wooo!
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Charisma's Bitch #1 "Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot." -- Lucy Lawless President Bush DID have a sure fire plan to end the war in Iraq, However Chuck Norris was busy that day. |
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08-31-2005, 11:20 PM | #30 | |
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"Ever heard this story? There once was a tiger-striped cat. This cat...died a million deaths, revived and lived a million lives. And he was owned by various people who he didn't really care for. The cat wasn't afraid to die. Then one day, the cat became a stray cat, which meant he was free. He met a white female cat. And the two of them spent their days together happily. Well, years passed and the white cat grew weak and died of old age. The tiger-striped cat cried a million times and then he died, too. Except this time, he didn't come back to life." -Spike |
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