Tim Minear and Angel

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

She said she wanted some time off with her son, but she said six months.

May I ask where you got this from? What article or tv interview? I've never seen CC state that she wanted 6 months off or asked for any time off when she was pregnant or after the birth.

The only interviews I've ever heard her give or articles in which she was quoted were ones in which she stated she had every intention of coming back for S5. She did say years after and in hindsight that being fired took a big decision off her shoulders, but the question of whether to work or stay home with your child is a question every new mother asks herself. But from every interview written at the time, she *never* asked to be let go in any way from her full-time, regular status on Angel. She was simply fired and not informed of it and that's not only from her mouth but Joss's.

Unfortunately, this sounds like all the other propaganda that spread once the backlash from her firing got rolling and fans with all kinds of different agendas wanted to justify the firing as not a firing at all but something CC asked for.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by Dannyblue

I will say that the way Charisma was treated (along with a few other things I've learned) have soured me a bit on AtS and BtVS.

I am honestly right there with you. I actually almost never watch my BTVS DVDs. A lot of them are still in the plastic wrap. And I don't watch ATS past Waiting In The Wings on repeat viewings, skip over episodes from the writers I didn't care for, etc.

I've talked to way too many set people who keep saying the same things for me not to believe it. It is one thing if someone says X but when five people say X and they worked in different departments...there is something to it.

Love to know what you learned too, you know, just see if it is the same info I got. I probably should go bug you on PM now. LOL

[Bert]

Well, actually, Debra Messing was ill and was told to take time off by her doctors. She filmed one episode from the comfort of her own bedroom while Will and Leo came in and out and was then out for an episode.

Her involvement throughout the rest of the season was diminished in order to allow her to rest, but in the end she still had to take more time off. I thought the show handled her pregnancy really well - but I can understand why she had to take time off. Filming of Will and Grace is done on one night in front of a live studio audience.

Filming of Angel wasn't, their shooting schedule would have been more flexible.

I also loved what they did with Jane Leeve's pregnancy in Frasier. They sent her off to fat camp!

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by jujube1013

look at chris carter and gillian anderson, that was the 2nd yr. of the series, at the beginning, and they worked around it, they had her in the lab, they put coats on her, things in front of her, and she was still able to do some gritty stuff, yes you could tell the actress was pregnant but didn't think about it and it brought a whole storyline that lasted through the series.
jennie garth was also pregnant during "90210" and "what i like about you" and they hid her.

they could have cordy working at the hyperion behind the desk, she could have stayed with TPTB, cordy could have just gotten pregnant. instead they reused a storyline of a beloved character going "evil". can't they think up different stories?

I don't think the "evil" storyline was invented just because she was pregnant - that would have been decided on long before. And I reiterate my previous point - my understanding is that her doctor did not want her to return at all - however she did (I think Vincent called her a "trouper"), but basically the only thing she was fit enough to do was the coma thing.

However, having initiated this thread I feel somewhat responsible for raising old ...er... demons! Perhaps it's best to let it R.I.P

[jean-vic]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

May I ask where you got this from? What article or tv interview? I've never seen CC state that she wanted 6 months off or asked for any time off when she was pregnant or after the birth.

Online articles. I have heard them somewhere I can't remember but I can not say in good conscience that they are true. I am more inclined to believe you. Well, they do say that you should never trust all media.

[jujube1013]

Originally Posted by Bryan

I don't think the "evil" storyline was invented just because she was pregnant - that would have been decided on long before. And I reiterate my previous point - my understanding is that her doctor did not want her to return at all - however she did (I think Vincent called her a "trouper"), but basically the only thing she was fit enough to do was the coma thing.

However, having initiated this thread I feel somewhat responsible for raising old ...er... demons! Perhaps it's best to let it R.I.P

sorry the "evil" thing was a general thing. they didn't have to turn any of the regular characters evil on angel, they had already done that on buffy. they had plenty of enemies on angel.

and from what i remember CC could only do the lying around part after the baby, but the story up to her going into the coma and after the birth didn't have to go the way it did. they totally trashed the character and then killed her off w/o the gang really showing any emotion. this woman worked for these people for 7yrs. she did not have to go evil at all and they could have written her pregnancy into the storyline w/o her sleeping with a boy she took care of as a baby. or like i said they could have kept her with TPTB until she gave birth, or hidden her behind the desk, had her powers causing her to get sick so towards the birth she could have stayed in bed, or keep that skip lied and the headaches were making her ill, there were tons of things to do w/o trashing the character, and blaming CC for their lack of imagination and then firing her w/o letting her know.

hell if they really had to turn her evil she could have been manipulating everything from TPTB, she did not have to sleep with conner or wear that horrible outfit and walk down steps in high heels, while heavily pregnant. the powers could have had her come back pregnant and they could have used a stunt double for fight scenes with angel, see there were alot of ways to do things instead they ruin a great character, blame everything on charisma being pregnant, and then fire her.

[Luna]

I totally agree, they had no reason to make Cordelia evil, put her in a coma and kill her. If Cordy had been pregnant, they could have done a storyline like "Rosemarys baby" or other movies where women got pregnant with an evil child, but it could have been a normal child, not an adult black woman. But no, she had the impertinence to become pregnant, so they had to destroy her character and fire her after seven years without even telling her. I´ve never heard before that an actress was fired because she was pregnant, not on American and also not on German TV shows. Most of them wanted to go themselves. The only reason it didn´t work was bad writing and too little fantasy.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by jujube1013

sorry the "evil" thing was a general thing. they didn't have to turn any of the regular characters evil on angel, they had already done that on buffy. they had plenty of enemies on angel.

and from what i remember CC could only do the lying around part after the baby, but the story up to her going into the coma and after the birth didn't have to go the way it did. they totally trashed the character and then killed her off w/o the gang really showing any emotion. this woman worked for these people for 7yrs. she did not have to go evil at all and they could have written her pregnancy into the storyline w/o her sleeping with a boy she took care of as a baby. or like i said they could have kept her with TPTB until she gave birth, or hidden her behind the desk, had her powers causing her to get sick so towards the birth she could have stayed in bed, or keep that skip lied and the headaches were making her ill, there were tons of things to do w/o trashing the character, and blaming CC for their lack of imagination and then firing her w/o letting her know.

hell if they really had to turn her evil she could have been manipulating everything from TPTB, she did not have to sleep with conner or wear that horrible outfit and walk down steps in high heels, while heavily pregnant. the powers could have had her come back pregnant and they could have used a stunt double for fight scenes with angel, see there were alot of ways to do things instead they ruin a great character, blame everything on charisma being pregnant, and then fire her.

Sorry, but I don't agree that they trashed the character. The main theme of series 4 was "Free Will" - having it, losing it and regaining it. The corollary of "Free Will" is "Moral Responsibility", that is if you don't have "Free Will" you also are not responsible for your actions. Cordelia clearly did not have "Free Will" and therefore it follows did not have "Moral Responsibility". Skip made it quite clear that Cordelia was not in control of her body - the rogue "higher power" was.

You or I have no idea why they chose to fire her. I am extremely dubious it had anything to do with her character in series 4. IMHO it was far more likely to be connected with saving money - that's what the "suits" are all about. My understanding is the WB wanted the show to cost less and they wanted Spike to be a regular.

Remember they also dropped Stephanie Romanov - who was clearly set up to be Angel's conduit to The Senior Partners.

Anyway - just my two pennyworth.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Sorry, but I don't agree that they trashed the character. The main theme of series 4 was "Free Will" - having it, losing it and regaining it. The corollary of "Free Will" is "Moral Responsibility", that is if you don't have "Free Will" you also are not responsible for your actions. Cordelia clearly did not have "Free Will" and therefore it follows did not have "Moral Responsibility". Skip made it quite clear that Cordelia was not in control of her body - the rogue "higher power" was.

You or I have no idea why they chose to fire her. I am extremely dubious it had anything to do with her character in series 4. IMHO it was far more likely to be connected with saving money - that's what the "suits" are all about. My understanding is the WB wanted the show to cost less and they wanted Spike to be a regular.

Remember they also dropped Stephanie Romanov - who was clearly set up to be Angel's conduit to The Senior Partners.

Anyway - just my two pennyworth.

Well, you're one of the rare few who don't believe her character was trashed. Sure, logically we all know the story was that it wasn't Cordelia but Jasmine that was evil, but ask and probably 7 out of 10 people (not on this board) won't bother to make that distinction. They simply hate Cordelia because of S4. The evil wore her face and they can't get that picture out of their minds and don't care to because she was never allowed to redeem herself and erase that image. That, IMO, is trashing a character.

I can't dispute what you believe about money being the reason for her firing because I can't provide proof of what I've learned over the years from various sources. But from what I have discerned it is pretty clear that she was being punished for daring to get pregnant and both the storyline and firing was their way of teaching her a lesson.

[samsmom]

I'd also like to add that to DS by saying that in my journey across the interwebs, I have rarely seen the distinction of Jasmine controlling Cordelia when Cordy's actions are brought up. It's most always "Cordelia killed Lilah", "Cordy slept with Connor." Now maybe they're just too lazy to clearly spell out the difference of who was in control during those actions, but to me, it seems that no distinction is truly recognized.

As much as it pains me to say it (because I'm so grateful Spike's 'alive') if they wanted to save money, all they had to do was keep the Hyperion as a set, leave Spike off the show (because he did not belong in Angel's world) and retain their most popular actor. I don't think it's a coincidence that a year after firing her, the show was cancelled.

And I dance on the ashes of Joss's ego.

[Angela]

I agree tenfold with all of what DS and samsmom and a few others have said. And this part...?

Originally Posted by samsmom

And I dance on the ashes of Joss's ego.

Deserved to be repeated. I'm doing a jitterbug myself.

[jean-vic]

I don't agree that 7/10 don't make a distinction between Cordy and Jasmine. I have spoken to hundreds of people and 9.9/10 have said Jasmine was responsible. The only people I know to dispute it are Cordy/Connor shippers who want a moment they can cherish, and people who hated Cordy to start with and not many do either. I have even see staunch C/A haters and staunch Cordelia haters say it wasn't her. 7/10 is an overeaction IMO, and a way off overreaction.

[samsmom]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

I don't agree that 7/10 don't make a distinction between Cordy and Jasmine. I have spoken to hundreds of people and 9.9/10 have said Jasmine was responsible. The only people I know to dispute it are Cordy/Connor shippers who want a moment they can cherish, and people who hated Cordy to start with and not many do either. I have even see staunch C/A haters and staunch Cordelia haters say it wasn't her. 7/10 is an overeaction IMO, and a way off overreaction.

Oh, thanks for reminding me - I've been meaning to 'ignore' your posts here as well as on AO.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

I don't agree that 7/10 don't make a distinction between Cordy and Jasmine. I have spoken to hundreds of people and 9.9/10 have said Jasmine was responsible. The only people I know to dispute it are Cordy/Connor shippers who want a moment they can cherish, and people who hated Cordy to start with and not many do either. I have even see staunch C/A haters and staunch Cordelia haters say it wasn't her. 7/10 is an overeaction IMO, and a way off overreaction.

I'm going to give you a pass on this one and assume you didn't really understand what I said. I wasn't saying 7 out of 10 people *couldn't* make the distinction. I said they "won't bother" doing it. I said they hate Cordy because of S4 because they don't care to make the distinction between Evil!Cordy and Good!Cordy. Their gut reaction is that they are left hating Cordy because of the S4 storyline. If you bug them and remind them it was Jasmine and not Cordy, sure they'll backpeddle and say "Oh, yeah, I know and you're right, but I still hate her."

I thought I was being pretty generous in allowing that 3 out of 10 random people would still like Cordy after S4.

And, thanks, Sam for reminding me.

[jean-vic]

Ignore this and be immature and petty if you want, but thanks for clearing up your meaning. I still disagree though. I'd say 8/10 still love Cordelia, but hate what the writers did with her in Season 4. We feel the same so can't blame them for that. But then again, I don't blow everything out of proportion through my bitterness. I hate what they did, but I haven't become a nihilist because of it. You two really need to lighten up a bit.