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Old 07-23-2007, 12:42 PM   #31
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I'd like to think that he was well on the way to settling down into Harry-like person when he died to save his wife and son.
I quite think the fact that Lily married him speaks volumes about how he had matured and changed. Lily clearly didn't think much of him when she first met him on the train, and was also not that impressed in Snape's memory in HBP. But something changed, and I don't believe it was that she suddenly decided not to care about character - and so it must have been James himself.

But I think that at the end of the day, while Harry may have been the spitting image of his father he was likely far more similar in character and temperament to Lily. Yes, that was a combination of many things including the neglect he suffered for most of his early life, but I still think innately he had Lily's personality. Snape, on the other hand, could never get past the fact that Harry looked so much like James to see what kind of a person Harry actually was.

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As to the comment that Ron made about marrying purebloods, I think he was teasing the kids.
Me too. And I don't quite mind Ron carrying a grudge against Malfoy - I still think at least one of them should have been killed in the book.

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Speaking of Weasleys, I was awfully glad to see Percy returned to the collective family fold. You know, I didn't even think of what he was thinking as Death Eaters took over the Ministry. I think I've thought as little as possible of him during his lengthy estrangement from the family.
I was sure that Percy would be the Weasley to die. Even though he had behaved very badly in earlier books, I was still very happy that he showed up at the end to fight. And I was glad that Fred forgave him before he died, so at least Percy had that much.

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While his more attractive characteristic to me is his utter loyalty and heart, I think his strongest weakness is self-doubt and lack of belief in himself.
Agreed. And that's why I'm still not sure how I feel about it, and recognize my own bias in hating the fact that he left is largely responsible for me thinking it doesn't work. I just wish it hadn't happened.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:24 PM   #32
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And this is trivial, I know, but I don't think it would have taken James 30-something years either. I'd put James and Lily in their early 20s when they died....
I stand corrected. Having gone back and checked, James and Lily were in their early 20s when Harry was born and everything happened with Voldemort. I've always just assumed they were older parents considering how level headed they were. So I must retract my besmirchment of James' character. You're right, he had changed and grown a lot in a relatively short period of time.

Now if we could just learn more about that short period of time...
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:24 PM   #33
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Posting after myself, but after reading some commentary elsewhere on the web, three more Snape-related thoughts:

(1) I didn't make this connection myself, but it was effin' brilliant of JK to re-show the Snape memory at Hogwarts in context - now we can understand that "Snape's Worst Memory" was not actually being humiliated by James/Sirius, but his worst memory is that he called Lily a mudblood and as a result she ended the friendship between them forever.

(2) I think the most tragic part of Snape's memories was the stricken look on his face when Dumbledore made the comment about "sorting too soon" - he was obviously thinking of how differently his relationship with Lily might have been if he were sorted into Gryffindor and not Slytherin.

(3) I gather that his last "look at me" request was his desire to see Lily's eyes one more time before he died. Of course, that in and of itself is just going to inflame the creative juices of any and all Harry/Snape shippers
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:36 PM   #34
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The part where Dumbledore saw Snapes Patronus sail out the window was the most tragic aspect for me.

From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: She landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office, and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears. "After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape.



So the fact that Tonks' Patronus changed form due to severe emotional stress wasn't just a one off in HPB after all.

Tissues people! I need more tissues!
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:56 PM   #35
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Overall I thought this was a really satisfying end to the series. Some nits; and maybe it's me, but didn't JKR say something about Ginny kicking ass and taking names in DH? Helena Bonham Carter got sold a bill of goods too, for that matter.

Also, just 'cause this stood up and slapped me: Hermione caused her parents to think they were other people, forget Hermione existed, and sent them off to Australia, then a couple of chapters later, she says she's never performed a memory charm?

And where did this trace thing come from on underage wizards, when in HBP, Dumbledore clearly said the Ministry could only tell magic had been done, not who did it.

I really had no problem with Ron taking off, especially when it was clear the locket affected him more than the others (as things will; much affected Harry more than anyone else, for instance), and he did want to return immediately, so there's the Ron we all know. What I truly didn't get was where this jealousy of Harry in regard to the fair Hermione came from? When did Ron ever think Harry was hot for Hermione?

As for Ron in the Epilogue, yes, being as both his wife and Ginny's husband had married purebloods, I'd say he was joking.

(Speaking of, I thought the Epilogue was fine. Obviously written 17 years ago, but fine.)

I thought it was a nice touch to have every Horcrux destroyed by a different person. (Even though I never was and still am not a fan of HorcruxHarry.) Made it all seem like a community event, so to speak.

When it's all said and done, Snape was a prat. A courageous prat, perhaps, but a prat nevertheless. I was and am still skeeved about him and Lily, requited or no, never more so than when he died looking into Harry's eyes.

That all said, I agree with Platy. There should have been more time devoted to Snape. His entire backstory shouldn't have been a series of disconnected memories. Show, don't tell.

I assume it was Lucius JKR spared in the end. It's not a bad call if it was. Slimy, reprehensible people don't always get their due IRL either.

(So who were the two added to the role call of the dead? Fred and Tonks would be my guess.)

I too could use a crash course in the whole wand/blood/double bonding connection and why it meant Harry could survive the AK again, if someone's up to it. Use small words and lots of illustrations wherever possible, 'kay? Thanks.

And since it's mandatory, yeah, loved BadAss Neville and BitchKiller Molly. Neville was less of a surprise than Molly, and yet, there had to be some reason everyone quailed in her presence. Now we know.

Albus Severus? Harry and Ginny so need to have their asses kicked for that one.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:15 PM   #36
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As to the comment that Ron made about marrying purebloods, I think he was teasing the kids.
Joke or not, I still didn't like it. Writing a kid off because of where he or she came from is something that they were fighting against. Having that lesson remain unlearned after seven books is a little disappointing.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:34 PM   #37
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Also, just 'cause this stood up and slapped me: Hermione caused her parents to think they were other people, forget Hermione existed, and sent them off to Australia, then a couple of chapters later, she says she's never performed a memory charm?
I had not noticed this, but I've seen this comment elsewhere. I suppose the most reasonable explanation is that she performed a different type of spell on her parents (a Confundus charm?), but didn't actually modify their memories which might be more of a permanent thing. Personally, I was wondering how she was going to get all the way to Australia to remove the spell, and then how on earth was she going to explain to her parents how they ended up there. Presumably, they left their dental practice behind and started another one, so how are they going to just pick up again?

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What I truly didn't get was where this jealousy of Harry in regard to the fair Hermione came from? When did Ron ever think Harry was hot for Hermione?
I don't think Harry being hot for Hermione was Ron's real issue. I think the real concern was that Hermione would CHOOSE Harry over Ron (had already done so). Similarly, the concern was that his mother preferred Harry as a son. So the jealousy of Harry had nothing to do, really, with how Harry might feel, but rather how everyone else viewed Ron in comparison to Harry. On a side note, I am somewhat glad that the Harry/Hermione ship was pretty much shot down in canon at least in HBP - had it not been, I think this book would have been much more difficult for the Harmonians to handle. I mean, when your ship is basically tied up with a Horcrux which needs to be STABBED TO DEATH by Ron, and then you have Harry telling Ron that he thought it was OBVIOUS that Harry and Hermione had a brother-sister thing going on... that would have been pretty harsh medicine for a hardcore shipper who had not already received a dose of canon reality in HBP.

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I assume it was Lucius JKR spared in the end. It's not a bad call if it was. Slimy, reprehensible people don't always get their due IRL either.

(So who were the two added to the role call of the dead? Fred and Tonks would be my guess.)
Possibly. If it's true that JKR had that Epilogue written for years, then Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Draco and Neville were always going to survive. I think the dictates of the story demanded that Snape was always going to die, so I don't think that changed.

I think Dean Thomas might have received a reprieve - he was sort of there for no real reason in a couple of scenes. Perhaps he was supposed to die at the Malfoys, but Rowling changed her mind and decided not to do it.

As far as additions to the role call of the dead, Fred might be one, but I just knew in my heart of hearts that at least one Weasley was going to have to die, and having it be one of the twins packs the most punch outside of it being Ron. (The most punch for Harry, anyway - and he needed those punches in order to be able, I think, to make his penultimate sacrifice, because he just couldn't abide anyone else he cared about dying instead of him). So I'm going to say Fred was always planned, but I'm really unsure of how Colin Creevey ended up as one of the random dead from out of nowhere. That one REALLY seemed gratuitous. And I have to wonder about Crabbe as well.

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Albus Severus? Harry and Ginny so need to have their asses kicked for that one.
Not least because it has inspired the new slashy ASS ship (Albus Severus/Scorpius).
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:54 PM   #38
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I'm really unsure of how Colin Creevey ended up as one of the random dead from out of nowhere. That one REALLY seemed gratuitous. And I have to wonder about Crabbe as well.
That did seem rather harsh. Poor little kid. All he ever wanted to do was take photos and help his hero. Maybe Harry being his hero had something to do with it, who knows.

As far as Crabbe, well, she was going to have to kill a Slytherin wasn't she? Apparently Draco needed to stick around to complete the epilogue, so there ya go.

I've read that people were disappointed that JKR demonized Slytherin House in the final book. Granted the Slytherins that we knew weren't running at lightening speed to fight against Voldemort, but then again it was fairly well established that the majority of those kids had Death Eaters for parents. Why would they fight along side the others? If anything, I thought it was very telling that Balding!Draco acknowledged Harry on the platform during the epilogue, and that Harry told Albus that there was nothing to be ashamed of if he were to be placed into Slytherin. Obviously the houses as well as the wizarding world are more united by that point.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:34 PM   #39
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I got a little muddled in the explanation. I got the tethered part, and the double bond, but I'm still not certain about why Harry was the real owner of the wand, or when the wand chose Draco. I need to reread the final couple of chapters again; I think I was hurrying a bit by the time I got there.
I haven't read HBP in a while but I think Draco was the true owner of the Elder Wand, because he was the one that disarmed Dumbledore, even though Snape was the one that killed me. My understanding was that because Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him as a mercy, Snape didn't best Dumbledore to become the true owner. However, how the Elder Wand knew that Harry had bested Draco and taken his other wand is beyond me. I think she fudged it a little bit there but I'm willing to go with it.
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Old 07-23-2007, 06:58 PM   #40
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I suppose the most reasonable explanation is that she performed a different type of spell on her parents (a Confundus charm?), but didn't actually modify their memories which might be more of a permanent thing.
That was a lot of confunding to be relying on though.

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...I was wondering how she was going to get all the way to Australia...
Apparate?

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...so how are they going to just pick up again?
NHS.

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I think the real concern was that Hermione would CHOOSE Harry over Ron (had already done so).
The perception thing works for why the locket would go on about it, but why did Harry have to reassure Ron he wasn't waiting for his chance to run off with Hermione and have kids with really really bad hair? Or, if Harry felt he had to refute the locket, why not also reassure Ron that Molly didn't really like Harry more than she did Ron?

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I think Dean Thomas might have received a reprieve - he was sort of there for no real reason in a couple of scenes.
I was beginning to think all he was there for was to create DEANNLUNA4EVA!. Well, after the terribly convenient sword talk with a goblin in the middle of the woods, at least.

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...but I just knew in my heart of hearts that at least one Weasley was going to have to die...
But Percy was tailor made for the Death of Redemption. Making Fred all the more of an impact, yes, but still and all. Again though, a nice bit of "life isn't fair," what with the Malfoy's being reunited as a family, while the Weasley's suffered a painful loss.

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...and he needed those punches in order to be able, I think, to make his penultimate sacrifice, because he just couldn't abide anyone else he cared about dying instead of him).
Yeah? I was actually thinking, to quote Ron, 'Overkill, mate'. I mean, he was already over people dying 'because of him' after Mad Eye bought it.

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but I'm really unsure of how Colin Creevey ended up as one of the random dead from out of nowhere. That one REALLY seemed gratuitous. And I have to wonder about Crabbe as well.
Colin was, I suspect, the mandatory death of the true innocent. Crabbe, well, we didn't really have a Slytherin to root for, so JKR had to kill one we at least knew about. And he got to take out a Horcrux while he was about it, so he was one up on many others.

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Not least because it has inspired the new slashy ASS ship (Albus Severus/Scorpius).
I was looking for promotion of the Lily/Hugo 'ship, with some mysterious channeling of Harry's and Hermione's souls through their children in there somewhere.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:47 PM   #41
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I haven't read HBP in a while but I think Draco was the true owner of the Elder Wand, because he was the one that disarmed Dumbledore, even though Snape was the one that killed me. My understanding was that because Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him as a mercy, Snape didn't best Dumbledore to become the true owner. However, how the Elder Wand knew that Harry had bested Draco and taken his other wand is beyond me. I think she fudged it a little bit there but I'm willing to go with it.
Okay, I think I can go with that. Mebbe. But I'm still muddled on the double bonding/tethering thing. I really need to reread at least the last few chapters.

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The perception thing works for why the locket would go on about it, but why did Harry have to reassure Ron he wasn't waiting for his chance to run off with Hermione and have kids with really really bad hair? Or, if Harry felt he had to refute the locket, why not also reassure Ron that Molly didn't really like Harry more than she did Ron?
Not Plat, but I'll take a stab at it. There were two different fears at work here. Fundamentally deep down, Ron will never doubt his parents and their love for him. I don't suppose anyone who grows up in a Weasley household will ever have cause to doubt that. What Ron feared was disappointing his parents, or having them look at Harry and find Ron wanting in comparison as a magician or as a hero (or a Quidditch player or anything else). Ron was by no means so sure of Hermione's affection for him, or at least not as sure as he was of his parents. While we (the audience) have known for a long time and Hermione, at least, had some awareness, it some time for Ron to wake up and smell the coffee, so to speak. We know he was still using techniques from his "How to pick up chicks" manual at the beginning of the book, and emotional IQ was never his strong suit anyway. Hermione's devotion to Harry has always been strong and clear, and I can totally understand a still-tentative Ron wondering exactly how she felt about him, and imagining she would look at the two of them and find Harry more attractive.

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Agreed. And that's why I'm still not sure how I feel about it, and recognize my own bias in hating the fact that he left is largely responsible for me thinking it doesn't work. I just wish it hadn't happened.
While I do sort of see why it happened, I can't say I was particularly happy about it. But I was glad that Ron more than redeemed himself by working so diligently to return to Harry and Hermione, saving Harry's life, and then retrieving both the Horcrux and the sword of Gryffindor. And there's a tiny part of me that wonders if all of it--Ron's doubt, the Horcrux's taunts, and Harry yelling at Ron to "Stab it! Stab it!"--were a clear message from JKR just to clarify exactly what she intended to happen.

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And where did this trace thing come from on underage wizards, when in HBP, Dumbledore clearly said the Ministry could only tell magic had been done, not who did it.
I've no doubt there were many things done in the Ministry that had never been done before once Voldemort took over. Maybe the underage wizard trace was similar to the Taboo that was placed on Voldemort's name. (That, by the way, was one of the parts where I literally wanted to skip ahead to see how it ended.)
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:13 AM   #42
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Not Plat, but I'll take a stab at it
Well, all right. Better than thinking JKR was smacking shippers over the head for the sake of it, I guess.

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Maybe the underage wizard trace was similar to the Taboo that was placed on Voldemort's name.
No, the trace was mentioned before Voldie's boys and girls took over the MoM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:29 AM   #43
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No, the trace was mentioned before Voldie's boys and girls took over the MoM.
It's quite possible that they figured out a way to or had narrowed the trace down though, in order to specifically seperate Harry from the rest.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:06 AM   #44
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That was a lot of confunding to be relying on though.
Normally, I'd just go with my standard stolen from the Simpsons line: "A wizard did it". But I guess when it comes to these books, that's at the root of your problem. So I just don't know. The only other option that comes to mind is the Imperio curse, and I just don't see any way that Hermione would do that to her parents. This may have just been a screw-up.


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I was beginning to think all he was there for was to create DEANNLUNA4EVA!.
Awwww. I actually liked Dean bonding with Luna in this book. I still like Luna an awful lot as a character - and I confess, a small part of me wanted Harry to end up married to Luna and not Ginny. I thought her funeral speech for Dobby was wonderfully touching in its simplicity and feeling.

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Yeah? I was actually thinking, to quote Ron, 'Overkill, mate'. I mean, he was already over people dying 'because of him' after Mad Eye bought it.
True, but having Fred and Lupin (Tonks less so) be the most recent victims brought it home in a way that Moody's death couldn't. He had known Fred ever since his first year at Hogwarts. Fred was a Weasley, the family that had basically adopted him. And Lupin was his last connection to his parents, and had just made him the godfather of his new son who was now an orphan, just like Harry. I'm not suggesting that Harry liked the idea of people dying for him until these two bit the bullet, but I think these two were a lot more traumatic and emotionally necessary in order for him to purposely walk towards Voldemort and give himself up without defending himself. But then again, maybe not. I've said before that this plot development was one of the things that I am not sure about.

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Colin was, I suspect, the mandatory death of the true innocent.
Dobby?

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Hermione's devotion to Harry has always been strong and clear, and I can totally understand a still-tentative Ron wondering exactly how she felt about him, and imagining she would look at the two of them and find Harry more attractive.
What Angela said.

Before Harry reassured Ron that he viewed Hermione as a sister, he also told him (IIRC) that she cried for a week after Ron left, which had more to do with Hermione's feelings for Ron than Harry's feelings for Hermione. And I think his speech about loving Hermione as a sister was also just a prelude to his stating that she felt the same way about Harry, or at least that's what he assumed. So I think it truly was about telling Ron that Hermione loves him, and that Harry just isn't in the picture in that sense.

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I've no doubt there were many things done in the Ministry that had never been done before once Voldemort took over. Maybe the underage wizard trace was similar to the Taboo that was placed on Voldemort's name.
I don't think the "trace" necessarily identifies Harry (as an underage wizard in a house full of Muggles), but it does work by creating a radius around him so that if he does magic or anyone within that radius does magic, a Ministry alert goes off. Dobby was very close to Harry when he set the alert off, and since Harry was living with Muggles at the time, the Ministry assumed that Harry himself had performed the magic. In the beginning of this book, someone (Kingsley? Moody?) mentioned that they needed to drive off with the Dursleys for a bit before they magicked them away from Privet Drive, so as not to activate Harry's trace alert. So it was clear that they were just trying to put enough distance between Harry and ANYONE doing magic so as not to tip the Ministry off, because the assumption would still be that it was Harry's magic that was responsible.

So no matter where Harry goes until he turns 17, and provided that the Ministry is not otherwise notified that he is in close proximity to other wizards (and I suspect that the Ministry may have been notified whenever Harry was visiting the Burrow, in past years), and also provided that wherever he is at any given moment doesn't have protective charms around it blocking the alert from going off (as I suspect the Burrow did have this time round), I think if either he or anyone close enough to him does magic, the alert will go off. And since Voldemort already had spies in the Ministry even before he formally took over, there certainly had to be at least one or two who were assigned Potter-Watch.

That's my best explanation.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:32 AM   #45
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Normally, I'd just go with my standard stolen from the Simpsons line: "A wizard did it". But I guess when it comes to these books, that's at the root of your problem. So I just don't know.
Made even more confusing when, on re-read, Hermione comes right out and says she modified her parents' memories:
Quote:
"I've also modified my parents' memories so that they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins..."
Let's go with she meant to say she'd never performed the Obliviate memory charm in particular.

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I actually liked Dean bonding with Luna in this book.
As did I actually.

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...and I confess, a small part of me wanted Harry to end up married to Luna and not Ginny.
Ah, well, there we'll go our separate ways. While I can't say I shipped anyone particularly, Harry needed to be a Weasley, so that left Ginny or he and Ron moving to Massachusetts.

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I thought her funeral speech for Dobby was wonderfully touching in its simplicity and feeling.
It was nice.

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Dobby?
Dobby wasn't innocent in the way Colin was. As Angela said, all Colin ever did was try to take pictures of his hero.
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