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Old 02-05-2006, 05:09 PM   #31
angdelia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoJo
I wish Whedon had defied the Bangels and gone with C/A. (I still don't buy that they were a major part of Angel's fanbase.
You're right. Most of the B/Aers I know didn't even watch Angel (and they tell me C/A was wrong, but they never really saw them together *sigh*)

And if you count all the Spike/Buffy, Cordy/Angel, Riley/Buffy, Xander/Buffy, Angel/Darla, Angel/Faith, Spike/Angel, Angel/Gwen shippers plus the viewers who just didn't care about ships; B/Aers really aren't the majority

*is still a little bitter*
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Old 02-05-2006, 11:50 PM   #32
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Exactly! The whole database of fans of Angel are C/As. Did Joss ever think he might be getting one-sided news of this shipper war??? And I'm not gonna blame you for being bitter, sometimes I want to rip Joss' head off for creating B/A.

(bytw, you're completely right with the other shippers, B/Aers really aren't the majority. Joss seriously needed to see that)
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:09 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by brownsbros3
During the first part of season five it was like they were not only trying to erase C/A, but Cordelia herself from the show's history. They did slightly better after "You're Welcome" with name drops in "A Hole in the World", "Shells', and "Not Fade Away," and stock footage in "Origin" and "Power Play." One of the reasons I didn't like "Smile Time" was that Wesley, one of Cordelia's closest friends, was encouraging Angel to pursue Nina two weeks after Cordelia died. I know that "Why We Fight" and "Smile Time" were originally written to coincide with their original plan for the 100th episode, which involved Buffy returning instead of Cordelia. But they could have gone back and put something about Cordelia's death sooner than the episode that aired three weeks after the fact.

Whedon and Minear have claimed that the reason they never went through with making Cordelia and Angel an official couple was because it was unpopular. On BTVS, they received alot of backlash over Willow and Tara yet they got parts of three seasons together. They stuck with it, and they eventually won folks over. Buffy and Riley was also largely unpopular, and they got a year together. Buffy and Spike was a mixed response with a significant number of viewers not liking that pairing, yet they were still given the final two seasons together. I don't see why they couldn't have given C/A a chance.

Whedon told TV Guide that the reason they did not bring Charisma back for seaosn five was because they did not have anything left for her to do. That was crap.

1.) They didn't anything for Gunn, Lorne, Harmony, or even Wesley to do for most of season five. It was the Angel, Spike, and Fred show.

2.) There were plenty of things that could have been with Cordelia. Here are five of my ideas.

a.) Cordelia and the gang could deal with the things that happened while Jasmine was in possession of her body.
b.) Cordelia and Angel could work on getting their relationship back to where it was before Connor entered the picture.
c.) They might actually start investigating her demon side further, which is something that she have been done in the episode after "Birthday."
d.) Since Angel was the CEO (Chief Executive Officer) of Wolfram and Hart, make Cordelia the CFO (Chief Financial Officer). She handled the money for AI anyway, so why not let her take the next step up the ladder?
e.) In a play on shows like the Bachelor and Joe Millionaire, have Buffy and Cordelia compete for Angel's affection, or Angel and Spike compete for Cordelia.
Oh, how I wish you and JoJo were writers of the show. If I ever meet any of the writers on Angel, especially Tim Minear, I will not hesistate one sec to kick their asses.
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:13 AM   #34
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I don't know how large they were, but they were the most vocal.
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Old 02-07-2006, 03:29 PM   #35
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The first half of S5 pains me to watch. So much so that some episodes I didn't even watch, the rest I've seen once. I agree totally with bb3 on the points he made about the characters in it.

I mean Harmony?? Still waiting to figure out the point of not just bringing her in to the show, but at the end as a regular?? In the titles?!? And did they forget she was missing a soul? Apart from the 'betrayal' scene in Not Fade Away she actually helped them out. Not just that but they let her help. Why? Because it gave her character some screen time I guess. Other than that all we would've got with Harmony was just her beeping Angel when someone wanted to see him. Which we also got alot of. To give her screen time.

The only proper history she has was with Cordy and I guess latterly Spike. Yet Joss wouldn't bring Xander into the mix. He must have the 'if the face fits mentality'. Which is silly. I mean he killed off C/A to not upset the B/Aers, but I'm sure more people would've tuned in to see Xander than Harmony. And since S5 was basically Sts, not Ats, Xander could've bounced off Spike. I mean Angel wasn't the only one left that Xander had a history with...

Gunn and Lorne were past their sell-by-dates. They could've given them great send-off episodes in season 5, yet we saw less and less, with them contributing... well.... what did they contribute? Aside from Lorne shooting Lindsey, and Gunn helping Lindsey out of that holding dimension I'm at a loss to say. And it says alot that both had their scenes I can remember involving a character that was not even a regular.

I didn't mind that much seeing more of Amy Acker, her acting ability went up a notch for me in the final season. I did not like however how they vamped up her image, and had it not been for them finally pushing W/F then Wes would have been even more relegated to the background, like Lorne and Gunn. That would've been awful.

There are a million and one ways Cordy could've fit into season 5. I mean two of the main characters were just background fittings, they needed to get some interaction from somewhere. Unfortunately it came from Eve.

Back to the 'ships, for me its all relative. I was a teenager watching BTVS to start with, hence I loved B/A at the start. I progressed to C/A as I grew older. When I think about it, the list of ships I didn't like is much smaller; I hated B/S, found G/F cringey at times, and wasn't a fan of B/R, more to do with Rileys character than anything else. I think the rest of the 'ships I've liked or 'loved' at some point or another....
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Old 02-07-2006, 04:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Gunn and Lorne were past their sell-by-dates. They could've given them great send-off episodes in season 5, yet we saw less and less, with them contributing... well.... what did they contribute? Aside from Lorne shooting Lindsey, and Gunn helping Lindsey out of that holding dimension I'm at a loss to say. And it says alot that both had their scenes I can remember involving a character that was not even a regular.
They both passed their sell-by dates in S3, IMHO. Neither character added anything to the show, and they took up valuable screen time that could have been used by Wes and Cordy.


Quote:
Back to the 'ships, for me its all relative. I was a teenager watching BTVS to start with, hence I loved B/A at the start. I progressed to C/A as I grew older.
That makes sense. B/A is above all, a high-school romance. From what I've seen, it's the more mature fans who appreciate C/A.
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:58 PM   #37
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One of the B/A arguments I heard against C/A was that Angel and Cordelia were too much like brother and sister. I never really saw that, because brothers and sisters fight, and Angel and Cordelia never really fought each other.

I'm am glad that things worked out for the best and Cordelia was able to return in "You're Welcome." Their point was that Angel was getting so miserable that he wanted to give up being the Champion. The job of putting him back on the path was better suited for Cordelia than Buffy.

I don't know that I could recall a single conversation between Angel and Buffy where she ever made him feel better about himself. With Cordelia, she always seemed to know what to say to put a smile on his face. One of the key moments for me in "You're Welcome" is when he tells her, "I am lost without you!" But unfortunately Mutant Enemy's idea of romance is pretty screwed up. Joss once said that "Happy couples are boring couples." To me what made Angel and Cordelia more entertaining was that they weren't always miserable all the time like when he was with Buffy. With Buffy and Angel it was always the same thing over and over again. Yet, with Cordy it was always new and exciting.

Then they had to botch it up with "Apocalypse Nowish." It's always been my argument that the final scene of that episode is something that should have never happened.
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:00 AM   #38
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Happy couples are boring couples?!?!?! Kill.Joss.Now! thatfatsunvuabitch!

Y'know we should all send Joss an e-mail and tell him how stupid he is?

(Bytw, you are completely right BB3, C/A aren't like siblings. They had nothing brother/sistery going on, they had a strong friendship which hinted their love. Tell the B/Aers to rewatch Disharmony, Dead End, Belonging, Over The Rainbow, Heartthrob, That Vision Thing, and those other loads of C/A episodes, they'll see it. And if they don't at the first try, tell them to repeat the whole thing until they do )
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:16 AM   #39
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Wesley and Cordelia had a sister/brother relationship. Always bickering... C/A weren't like that. They were just like best friends.

And happy couples aren't boring. Boring couples are boring. Any happy couple that is well written (like Angel/Cordelia were before the whole Kyerumption thing, IMO) can be interesthing, as long as there's a little tension now and then. Not tension ALL the time... like B/A.
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:30 AM   #40
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B/A was a nightmare for both of them. Mostly Angel, because he had no friends back then to go on. Plus, have you EVER seen him smile when Buffy's around? 'No' rings in the head, doesn't it?
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:24 AM   #41
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Okay, can we lower the temperature just a little bit? Again? (CA4eva, I'm looking at you. No offense.)
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Old 02-08-2006, 10:19 AM   #42
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No, not at all, I didn't take that as an offense I was in a rage so you can call those posts a way to let out the anger. And we shoud lighten this thread up, it's becoming a arguing debate about frustrating things. The bottom line is: Unless you are REALLY good friends, a B/Aer and a C/Aer cannot get along, and as it goes for Joss: He's living in a dream that the whole world worships him and B/A. When they don't and some people don't even like his shows.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:41 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4eva
B/A was a nightmare for both of them. Mostly Angel, because he had no friends back then to go on. Plus, have you EVER seen him smile when Buffy's around? 'No' rings in the head, doesn't it?

well, there WAS one time when Buffy walked into the Bronze to meet Angel, and she saw him there, smiling,...but he was talking to Cordelia at the time.
but technically, Buffy WAS 'around'

and i don't think it was a nightmare for both of them,
it wasn't for Buffy anyway,
she got Angel to do almost everything SHE wanted.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:36 PM   #44
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well, there WAS one time when Buffy walked into the Bronze to meet Angel, and she saw him there, smiling,...but he was talking to Cordelia at the time.
but technically, Buffy WAS 'around'

and i don't think it was a nightmare for both of them,
it wasn't for Buffy anyway,
she got Angel to do almost everything SHE wanted.
Can you re-watch that episode and see who he was smiling at? And now, come to think of it, the relationship was a nightmare ONLY for Angel. Man, I so wish Cordelia had found him instead of Buffy (like in the fics. Hey, it doesn't hurt to wish, right? It's not like there's a vengeance demon in here, and I'm not angry..ok, I am, may Joss Whedon burn in tarkna, lol)
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:53 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by CA4eva
Can you re-watch that episode and see who he was smiling at?
oh, he was definately smiling at Cordelia, she was talking about her friends cloths or something, and Angel was smiling at what she was saying, then Buffy came in, saw them, and turned around and was leaving when Angel saw her, and ran after her

oops, no more smiles
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