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Old 06-20-2010, 09:19 PM   #61
Livvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnSkippy View Post
In hindsight, I think it would have been far better for AtS to have been a separate entity like most spin-offs get to be. All the crossovers weakened it, IMO.
THIS! So much this. Even when the show was on, no hindsight, I was like please no crossovers! It was just such fanservice. Like don't forget, Buffy came first! And then whenever Angel went to Buffy, he was AngelBot, devoid of all characterization and plot.
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Old 06-21-2010, 01:11 PM   #62
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SUMMARY

Angel (David Boreanaz) tells Doyle (Glenn Quinn) of his human experience, and meeting the Powers that Be, but Doyle doesn't have much time to react because work beckons. They soon finda group of half-breed demons and learn the demon racist group,The Scourge, are in town and out for blood. They conspire to rescue the half-demons: Angel goes undercover for the Scourge, and Cordelia and Doyle arrange the half-demons' safe passage toan island. When one of the half demons runs away, Doyle followshim and this delays the departure. While Doyle is away, Cordelia learns of his true identity. Meanwhile, on the inside, Angel learns the strategy to eliminate the half-demon breed population: The Scourge have built a machine whose rays can wipe out any human within a 1/4 mile radius. Angel soon escapes the Scourge and goes to the ship to warn Doyle and Cordelia. He is followedby the soldiers, who place the deadly machine on the ship. With thelives of dozens in jeopardy, Angel and Doyle realize that one of them will have to die in order to disconnect the beams. Though Angel protests, Doyle decides to make the sacrifice. He engages Cordelia in a passionate embrace, then meets the machine. He successfully disconnects it, then dies.

-From Buffyworld

Food for thought:

What was your favorite scene?
What was your least favorite scene?
What was your favorite line?
What line made you roll your eyes?
What would you change if you could?
C/A factor?
Anything that just sticks in your craw?
Any fics that take place during this episode you'd like to rec?
__________________
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"I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:10 PM   #63
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What's going on, did everyone stop watching?

HERO
What was your favorite scene?
I think the scene between Cordy and Doyle after she finds out he was a half-demon. I love watching the expressions on her face as she goes through all the different emotions, fear, anger, relief, then at the end, that great big smile that threatens to burn a hole in the tv screen

What was your least favorite scene?
The scourge gathering in the warehouse, IN THEIR NAZI UNIFORMS. So cliche. I know they were on a budget, and the studio probably had them around, but they COULD have changed things around to make them look a little different.

What was your favorite line?
a couple
Doyle, to Cordy: "I don't know what we need evil for when we got you right here."
Cordy to Doyle: "What do you think I am, superficial?"

C/A factor?
It's all Cordy and Doyle.

It might have been nice to see Doyle carry forward, maybe get some interaction between him and Harry, but he had to die to pass on the visions to Cordy. and all that followed was predicated on HER having the visions, and I don't think the show would have been as good if he had lived and kept the visions. Just my opinion.


ETA:
One more thing I just thought of. When the scourge comes to the ship, there's about 2 dozen of them. Angel fights 4 of them on deck, then he and the leader fall into the hold where Angel kills the leader. Doyle does his thing, and then everything is okay. What happened to the rest of the scourge? Did they just walk away when the leader died, or were they more connected to him and just die when he did???
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Last edited by tojoson; 06-23-2010 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:56 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojoson View Post
It might have been nice to see Doyle carry forward, maybe get some interaction between him and Harry, but he had to die to pass on the visions to Cordy. and all that followed was predicated on HER having the visions, and I don't think the show would have been as good if he had lived and kept the visions. Just my opinion.
I totally agree with this. SFM. I get that he had to die, and the show wouldn't have been as good, imho, without Cordy getting the visions.

I've been behind on the rewatch due to World Cup and well, I'm sick.

Oh Hero, talk about a tear-jerker. Sure, the whole Scourge plotline is a bit heavy handed and we get it, Nazis are bad but we do get to see Doyle finally come into his own as a hero and give his life to save his friends and others. Glenn Quinn was looking pretty rough in those flashbacks though, not just because he was supposed to but he had the serious glassy eyes going on. Hindsight I guess.

It's hard to pick favorite scenes in such a sad episode but for sure, I love the beginning, love the commercial. I love that Cordelia is trying to get their name out there and make some money. And the comments about Angel needing a costume and tights, totally perfect.

Least favorite has to be the entire Nazi subplot. I wish they could have done something less obvious there.

C/Aness: Not a whole lot outside of the hug at the end and then them watching the tape together. I think it's a pivotal bonding moment for them. Angel's accepted the fact that him and Buffy can't be and he has just lost his first real friend, a member of their small family.

Weirdness: Nothing really sticks out to me.

Inconsistencies: Now my hubby pointed this out but would the Beacon really have hurt Angel since technically he doesn't have human blood or is the fact that it is a demon in a human body enough? I mean, he's drinking pig's blood, he is technically a demon. Is a demon in a human body enough or has the demon fully taken over. Of course, as he said "Far be it for me to question the mythology of the Whedonverse." LOL (I love him)

Fashion choices: Angel didn't change much. And it was the all black/greys again.

Fics: The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Bound by Inamorata: http://www.stranger-things.net/justf...rata/bound.htm
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:59 PM   #65
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SUMMARY

Angel pays a visit to the PTB (Powers That Be) and begs them to return Doyle. They refuse and when he protests that he no longer has access to the visions, they reply that when a door closes, another one opens. Meanwhile, a schwarmy telepathic demon named Barney approaches Angel Investigations for help, claiming that he is being followed by a demon-assassin. Later that day, Cordelia is in the middle of an audition, and receives a vision. She soon realizes there was more to Doyle's kiss than she originally thought. Assuming that she can be rid of the visions by kissing someone else, she kisses Angel, and the new client. After a brief interview with Barney, Angel visits his apartment to see if he can learn anything. While he is there, he encounters Wesley, a watcher he had briefly known in Sunnydale. Wesley was kicked out of the Watcher's Council and is now a rogue-demon hunter in hot pursuit of a dangerous and powerful demon. They soon discover that the demon that was most recently attacked by the killer is of Asian origin. Angel heads over to Koreatown to get more information and Wesley later joins him. After speaking to the dying demon, they deduce that Barney is involved, and Cordelia is is in danger. Meanwhile, Barney kidnaps Cordelia and bids her visionary powers at an auction. When the deal goes to the highest bidder, Cordelia's fate is to have her eyes gouged out. Moments before the first incision, Angel and Wesley rush in and save the day. The next morning, Angel invites Wesley for breakfast. Is Wesley here to stay?

-From Buffyworld

Food for thought:

What was your favorite scene?
What was your least favorite scene?
What was your favorite line?
What line made you roll your eyes?
What would you change if you could?
C/A factor?
Anything that just sticks in your craw?
Any fics that take place during this episode you'd like to rec?
__________________
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"I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livvie View Post
Inconsistencies: Now my hubby pointed this out but would the Beacon really have hurt Angel since technically he doesn't have human blood or is the fact that it is a demon in a human body enough? I mean, he's drinking pig's blood, he is technically a demon. Is a demon in a human body enough or has the demon fully taken over. Of course, as he said "Far be it for me to question the mythology of the Whedonverse." LOL (I love him)
Wasn't the beacon supposed to kill any half-breeds? And, technically, vampires are half human and half demon. I don't think it had to do with blood, per se.

I have to agree about the Nazi metaphor. While it's appropriate, it's far too cliche and booyah bomb! I fast forward through all that Scourge stuff when I watch it.

The Cordy-Doyle scenes were the best parts although the Angel-Doyle scenes with the blue lighting were kinda awesome, too. But the end scene with C/A watching the tape guts me every time.

I'm not sure about how good/bad the show would have been with Doyle. I do like Cordy with the visions, but a part of me would have liked to see her grow and become an amazing woman all on her lonesome - just as one of the team and learning, along with Angel, from those helpless they help. To have Angel love her without her becoming another "champion" and, therefore, "worthy" (in a Buffy way) of his love.

However, had Doyle continued I believe they would have gone the Cordy/Doyle route so we most likely would never have gotten C/A unless Doyle died eventually.

Or, there's always the chance that even if she hadn't gotten the visions, they probably would have powered her up in some other way.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:20 PM   #67
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I'm not sure about how good/bad the show would have been with Doyle. I do like Cordy with the visions, but a part of me would have liked to see her grow and become an amazing woman all on her lonesome - just as one of the team and learning, along with Angel, from those helpless they help. To have Angel love her without her becoming another "champion" and, therefore, "worthy" (in a Buffy way) of his love.

However, had Doyle continued I believe they would have gone the Cordy/Doyle route so we most likely would never have gotten C/A unless Doyle died eventually.
- Damnskippy

I'm a little bit more cynical so I think if they hadn't had Cordy have the visions, she would have ended up with Xander Syndrome, where they wouldn't have known what to do with her or how to include her in the show, especially in s2 and the move to the Hperion, when it ceased to be about helping the helpless and most of the arcs were about the Fang Gang.

I also think they would have gone the Doyle/Cordy route if Doyle stayed on, and we'd have had to sit through an even bigger parade of tiny blondes every season.

Most of Hero is forgettable, except for the beginning when Cordy and Doyle are filming their commerical, the revelation of Doyle being part demon and Cordelia's reaction, Doyle's sacrifice and the C/A hug at the end. Watching them watch Doyle's commerical always chokes me up a little because watching the beginning without knowing and then hearing him repeat those same words......."is that it? I am done?" I want to cry just thinking about it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:28 PM   #68
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I do love the Cordy-centric episodes, not going to lie. We get to see so much about her character and about Angel as a result. Who knew that Angel cooked? We never saw that on BTVS, that is for sure. And that he was actually pretty decent at it. Love that it's a common occurance. Oh there are so many great scenes in this. I love that Cordy tried to draw Angel out of his brood, out of his grief. Love that he made a joke. When did he ever make a joke on BTVS? I can't recall. Love that Cordy fakes a vision and tries to get away. Love that Cordy is smart enough at the auction to stall by bringing her price up. Love that she stabbed Barney with the horn. And love that she says she knew Angel would save her. Love that Angel says he won't let anything happen to Cordy. Oh yeah, and love it when DB totally skims CC's ass with his left hand. LOL OH! And we get to see Cordy's tattoo!

Best lines for me:

The entire Angel and Wes exchange in the apartment.

Angel: Hey, and behave yourself. I don’t want to find you two necking on the couch when I get back.

Angel: Nothing is going to happen to Cordelia. I won’t let it.

Cordy: I never doubted for a minute that you’d find me.


I don't have any scenes I don't like. I just love this episode all the way.

Weirdness: Does anyone else wish they would have kept the black lawyer for W&H? This is the only time we see her. I would have liked to see more of her, even if she went the way of Lee Mercer. I also want maor Oracles! I liked them.

Inconsistencies: My biggest issue is that for the last nine episodes, we have seen Doyle have very specific visions. He has names, addresses, specifics. But as soon as they get to Cordy, it's all with the vague-ity vague.

C/Aness: BURSTIN' with it. BURSTIN'! Just check the above. We have the kiss that Angel hesitates in and leaves him stuttering. We have Angel saving her. We have the ass skim. Oh yes, good day for C/A with this episode.

Fashion Choices: Oh Angel, you were with the all black this episode.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:30 PM   #69
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Ahhh, so much good stuff in this episode.

Befuddled Angel trying to figure out Cordy in the 'I'm not going anywhere, oops I've gotta leave, audition,' scene.

The little dance to calm her nerves at the audition.

The slinky way she comes into the office and goes over to kiss Angel.

"Boy, howdy."

“Maybe not every frog.”

The little 'mmmm' she gives out when she is kissing Wes, and they get closer.

The way she gets into it when trying to buy time at the auction.

Breakfast.

The only thing I didn't like was Wes being so stupid as to tape a knife directly to his leg. just an excuse to show how clumsy he is.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:25 PM   #70
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SUMMARY

A girl is murdered by a vampire during the early morning hours. Later that day, Wesley notices an article about the murder in the newspaper and leaves immediately. Angel pays a visit to Kate about some other business, but while he is there, he observes the crime scene photos on her desk. He recognizes the modus operandi, and immediately realizes that there is a connection between his recent nightmares and the murders. Meanwhile, Wesley returns to Angel Investigations and clues Cordelia in on the situation at hand. He tells her in the past, Angelus marked his victims' left cheek with a cross. That night, Angel has a dream. He realizes one of his sires named Penn is responsible for the current murders. That afternoon, Angel brings a drawing of Penn to Kate and instructs her to stake out an area. Later that day, Penn strikes, but before he can complete the kill, the police arrive. Penn escapes in a nearby abandoned building. Kate comes in after him and soon finds Angel at the scene. He dons his vampire face and the two begin to fight. After learning Angel's true identity, Kate initially freaks out, but then hits the library to learn more about vampires. She discovers that Penn struck two times in LA earlier that century, in 1928 and 1963. Wesley and Angel figure out where he resides and pay a visit to his apartment. Meanwhile, Penn pays a surprise visit to the police department. Angel catches wind of the situation climbs down into the tunnels and gets into a big brawl with Penn. However, it's Kate who saves the day when she locates a wood scrap and stakes Angel and Penn. Due to her great aim, only Penn is dusted.

-From Buffyworld

Food for thought:

What was your favorite scene?
What was your least favorite scene?
What was your favorite line?
What line made you roll your eyes?
What would you change if you could?
C/A factor?
Anything that just sticks in your craw?
Any fics that take place during this episode you'd like to rec?
__________________
"No regrets. That is what I say. That and everybody Wang Chung tonight" -Out Cold
"I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #71
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Okay, I wanna complain about Kate's characterization again. I get that this is a supernatural show and not a cop drama but still, how can they write her so incompetant for the sake of story? Angel comes to visit and she has the folder open on her desk, doesn't even bother to close it. And then she proceeds to tell Angel ALL about an ongoing investigation, including showing him crime scene photos and later taking him to the work room. I mean...holy hell. And since when are cops profilers? Did Kate get a degree in psychology that we don't know about? Instead of making her a good character, they just throw it all away so Angel can have an "in" at the police station. It just annoys me to no end. Of course, my husband goes and makes a comment to cut right through my annoyance at Kate's profiling speech:

Kate: It’s unlikely that he’ll be married though he may have recently come off a long-term relationship that ended badly. We look for a precipitating event in cases such as this, and a painful breakup is always at the top of the list.

Husband: Quick! Check out Facebook database for anyone who has changed their status from in a relationship to single!


It is just that ridiculous. We get it, we are supposed to think that it's Angel so they are giving a background about Angel. Too bad it didn't even have anything to do with Penn, her little profiling.

I'm done with the Kate rant...for this episode. Let's move on to the episode on a whole. I like it. I think Penn was a good MOW. And it was nice to get some insight into Angelus' past. Unfortunately, all the characterization for Angelus seems to occur in the past. Because when he is out in present time episodes, he is kind of a pansy. I would have expected him, to stay true to character, to have slaughtered all the Scoobies or at least Joyce when he was on BTVS. And really, he didn't do anything when he gets let out in ATS S4. The only time we see how evil Angelus really is, is during flashbacks.

Inconsistencies: The major ones are the Kate ones I talked about. And how is it that it only takes a few seconds for a vampire to drain a victim. Are they like the Dyson of the demon world? They can drain all those pints in 2.5 seconds and clean up the cat hair on your couch?

Weirdness: Cordy's last shirt, the white one with the leather ties, I had that shirt back in the day in salmon pink. I wonder if the costume department shopped at Mervyns too. LOL

C/Aness: We get the line to Wes from Cordy about being Angel's friend, we get the great rooftop scene where Cordy pulls Angel out of his brood and keeps him on the path to being a champion. And well, it's clear Cordy's chained up a few people in her time.

Fashion choices: Angel's got on a brown sweater when Penn comes to the office. And the grey sweater at the end. Yay for the non-black on black.
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:29 AM   #72
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SUMMARY

Angel (David Boreanaz) tells Doyle (Glenn Quinn) of his human experience, and meeting the Powers that Be, but Doyle doesn't have much time to react because work beckons. They soon finda group of half-breed demons and learn the demon racist group,The Scourge, are in town and out for blood. They conspire to rescue the half-demons: Angel goes undercover for the Scourge, and Cordelia and Doyle arrange the half-demons' safe passage toan island. When one of the half demons runs away, Doyle followshim and this delays the departure. While Doyle is away, Cordelia learns of his true identity. Meanwhile, on the inside, Angel learns the strategy to eliminate the half-demon breed population: The Scourge have built a machine whose rays can wipe out any human within a 1/4 mile radius. Angel soon escapes the Scourge and goes to the ship to warn Doyle and Cordelia. He is followedby the soldiers, who place the deadly machine on the ship. With thelives of dozens in jeopardy, Angel and Doyle realize that one of them will have to die in order to disconnect the beams. Though Angel protests, Doyle decides to make the sacrifice. He engages Cordelia in a passionate embrace, then meets the machine. He successfully disconnects it, then dies.

-From Buffyworld




SUMMARY

Angel pays a visit to the PTB (Powers That Be) and begs them to return Doyle. They refuse and when he protests that he no longer has access to the visions, they reply that when a door closes, another one opens. Meanwhile, a schwarmy telepathic demon named Barney approaches Angel Investigations for help, claiming that he is being followed by a demon-assassin. Later that day, Cordelia is in the middle of an audition, and receives a vision. She soon realizes there was more to Doyle's kiss than she originally thought. Assuming that she can be rid of the visions by kissing someone else, she kisses Angel, and the new client. After a brief interview with Barney, Angel visits his apartment to see if he can learn anything. While he is there, he encounters Wesley, a watcher he had briefly known in Sunnydale. Wesley was kicked out of the Watcher's Council and is now a rogue-demon hunter in hot pursuit of a dangerous and powerful demon. They soon discover that the demon that was most recently attacked by the killer is of Asian origin. Angel heads over to Koreatown to get more information and Wesley later joins him. After speaking to the dying demon, they deduce that Barney is involved, and Cordelia is is in danger. Meanwhile, Barney kidnaps Cordelia and bids her visionary powers at an auction. When the deal goes to the highest bidder, Cordelia's fate is to have her eyes gouged out. Moments before the first incision, Angel and Wesley rush in and save the day. The next morning, Angel invites Wesley for breakfast. Is Wesley here to stay?

-From Buffyworld




SUMMARY

A girl is murdered by a vampire during the early morning hours. Later that day, Wesley notices an article about the murder in the newspaper and leaves immediately. Angel pays a visit to Kate about some other business, but while he is there, he observes the crime scene photos on her desk. He recognizes the modus operandi, and immediately realizes that there is a connection between his recent nightmares and the murders. Meanwhile, Wesley returns to Angel Investigations and clues Cordelia in on the situation at hand. He tells her in the past, Angelus marked his victims' left cheek with a cross. That night, Angel has a dream. He realizes one of his sires named Penn is responsible for the current murders. That afternoon, Angel brings a drawing of Penn to Kate and instructs her to stake out an area. Later that day, Penn strikes, but before he can complete the kill, the police arrive. Penn escapes in a nearby abandoned building. Kate comes in after him and soon finds Angel at the scene. He dons his vampire face and the two begin to fight. After learning Angel's true identity, Kate initially freaks out, but then hits the library to learn more about vampires. She discovers that Penn struck two times in LA earlier that century, in 1928 and 1963. Wesley and Angel figure out where he resides and pay a visit to his apartment. Meanwhile, Penn pays a surprise visit to the police department. Angel catches wind of the situation climbs down into the tunnels and gets into a big brawl with Penn. However, it's Kate who saves the day when she locates a wood scrap and stakes Angel and Penn. Due to her great aim, only Penn is dusted.

-From Buffyworld
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"I only want to have sex with the C part of C/A. Not interested in the A." -Me to Nikkiwawa
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Old 06-26-2010, 04:45 PM   #73
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Parting Gifts -

After the incredible sadness of Hero, Parting Gifts was like a shining ray of sunlight into the gloom. As much as I loved Doyle, it's with his death that Cordelia and Angel cross that last little bit of space and become very precious to each other.

I loved the obvious sleight of hand with Barney and the suggestion that he's the door that's about to be opened - he's the opposite of Doyle in that he announces he's a demon, which is painfully obvious, and seems to establish a pseudo connection with Cordy by immediately understanding her pain. I also liked that Barney expressed the pain and grief that Cordelia, by her very nature, couldn't. It lets us know very clearly her emotions about losing Doyle and her guilt over it. I think losing Doyle is the second step in her maturing into a woman who was so willing to risk death to help the helpless, and Angel.

Cordelia shows her smarts with prolonging the auction - to give Angel time to find her and she also shows that she's a fighter by doing a damned good job of fighting off Barney when she knew Angel wouldn't be back in time to swoop in. Her unquestioning "I knew you'd find me" was an "awww" worthy moment of C/Aness.

I loved Angel's resolve not to let anything happen to Cordelia, and being artistic - and two hundred + years old - came in handy with recognizing the piece of art in Cordelia's vision. But I did find it a bit unbelievable that he'd make the connection between the blobby thing and the hotel where the auction's being held that fast.

I was so pleasantly surprised to see Wesley when I first watched the episode. I wasn't online at the time so I was totally unspoiled. He's still BtVS Wesley but we finally get to see the uncertain vulnerability beneath the artificial confidence every Watcher has, and we find out that despite his "head boy" attitude, he's very good at some things - like tracking demons.

The end scene of Angel cooking breakfast is a nice sew up of the episode and the family that's formed. I loved every second of this episode.

Oh, except Wesley's poorely timed trip into self-pity land. Cordy's in danger, Angel's needs Watcher-type help and Wesley thinks it's a fine moment to indulge his insecurities. Whatever, Wes.

Favorite lines:
"Nothing's going to happen to Cordelia. I won't let it."
"What's a rogue demon?"
"Don't let me catch you necking on the couch when I get back." (When has Angel ever teased anyone like this, with such genuine humor??)
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:27 PM   #74
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Somnambulist

Cordyisms

“And if it turns out that we’re back on the liquid lunch, better safe than cocktails!”

"I don’t want to stick around for your nocturnal commissions.”

“A real psycho-wan-kenobi.”

----------

Best lines of the show, and among the best lines of the season IMO

Cordy: “Oh, I’ll kill you dead!”
Angel blinks: “Thanks.”
Cordy turns to go: “What are friends for?”


The way she said that, just so matter of fact.
I love the way Angel looks at her as she turns her back and goes down stairs.
To me that was the moment when Angel started to RESPECT her.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:30 PM   #75
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SUMMARY

Cordelia prepares for a night on the town with William Christopher, a prominent L.A. photographer, but right before her friends whisk her away to meet him, she receives a vision and gives the information to Angel. Angel and Wesley check out the address and slay a demon spawn. At the club, Cordelia chats it up with William and invites him to spend the night. The next morning, she realizes she's expecting! Angel and Wesley pay a visit to her apartment and observe her pregnant state. They try to contact Wilson but are unable to reach him. They form a plan: Angel will track down Cordelia's friend Serena, while Wesley will take Cordelia to the doctor. When the doctor observes she is carrying 7 babies, the panic sets in. Meanwhile, Angel meets with Serena and discovers she's pregnant as well. She clues him to Wilson and his cronies' hangout: a local gun club. Meanwhile, Cordelia and Wesley return to Angel's pad and Wesley observes her new attitude towards her spawn. She is suddenly very attached to them. Wesley deduces she is under some kind of telepathy. After a brief reconnaissance, Angel heads for the gun club, and Wesley researches and identifies the demon species. Cordelia, now fully under the influence, escapes from the apartment and heads to a local industrial park to prepare for the birth. Meanwhile, William fesses all after a brutal thrashing from Angel in vamp form. Wesley heads over to the industrial park and challenges the demon to a duel to the death. Angel enters the scene and brings a giant canister of liquid nitrogen as an offering. They freeze the demon and Cordelia, no longer pregnant and under the influence of the telepathy, destroys it.

-From Buffyworld

Food for thought:

What was your favorite scene?
What was your least favorite scene?
What was your favorite line?
What line made you roll your eyes?
What would you change if you could?
C/A factor?
Anything that just sticks in your craw?
Any fics that take place during this episode you'd like to rec?
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