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Old 01-30-2008, 02:55 PM   #31
Shadow4Corangela
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I have to say after reading all that, you guys have sorta convinced me about changing my like for Willow. I never did watch that many BTVS episodes..3 or 4 at the most..and most of them were because of Cordelia. So the only image I got of Willow was this innocent person..or maybe what I portrayed as the innocent person at the time.

I do agree with you nikki, I thik Buffy did have similarities with Cordelia and she probably even recognized a bit of it.

I've debated time and time again whether I should go back and rent all 7 seasons of BTVS and watch them..but I'm still not sure.

And samsmom, you always have simple but great rants.

So, since you guys convinced me and with excellent arguments, (yes, I'm just that easily persuaded) my new list is:

My list is:
Cordelia
Faith
Lilah
Drusilla
and Buffy
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:47 PM   #32
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I do agree with you nikki, I thik Buffy did have similarities with Cordelia and she probably even recognized a bit of it.
Buffy totally recognised it. There's a scene in early season 3 (for the life of me, I can't tell you which episode - a few years ago, I could have reeled it off at the click of a finger. It's the same ep where Angel talks about holding his and Buffy's hearts in his hands...) where Buffy is talking to Angel and says that at high school, before she moved to Sunnydale she was a lot like "Somebody... let's call her... Spordelia"
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:05 PM   #33
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The thing is, except for a couple of strung together moments during the ending of Homecoming, I think Buffy was both resentful of Cordelia for being the 'regular' girl she (Buffy) used to be - the popular one with great fashion sense and any boy she wanted and no other cares in the world - and looking down on Cordelia for that same reason.

Livvie, I agree with your point on how certain fanfic writers have given you a bad taste in regards to Willow. Same here. Starting with the show's writers.

I will never get their love affair with thin, baby-talkin waifs who are geniuses and are never punished for doing wrong, bad things. Even when they skin human beings alive or try and send them to alternate hell dimensions out of revenge. They get to be goddesses and god-kings.

Much worse to be a full bodied, confident woman who's not afraid to stand up for herself and actually wants to help the victims she sees in her visions. Let's punish that assuming bitch with multiple mystical rapes and a bonus coma.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:35 PM   #34
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AMEN, girl!!

True about Buffy. It was pretty hard for me, to not like her, because her and Cordelia were my favorite from the beginning. But, she pissed me off when she looked down on Cordy for anything. OMG when she called her a "vapid whore" I was all

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Much worse to be a full bodied, confident woman who's not afraid to stand up for herself and actually wants to help the victims she sees in her visions. Let's punish that assuming bitch with multiple mystical rapes and a bonus coma.
I don't know why the writers favored certain characters. I tell you, we were sooooooo lucky to have David Greenwalt. He was such a Cordy fan, and gave us awesome episodes. It was so clear, when he left. Like, you could TELL he was gone, just by the way they were treating Cordy in season 4.

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I will never get their love affair with thin, baby-talkin waifs who are geniuses and are never punished for doing wrong, bad things. Even when they skin human beings alive or try and send them to alternate hell dimensions out of revenge. They get to be goddesses and god-kings.
I didn't get it. No offense to any fans of these two, but they didn't do much for me. Why were they held SO high on the pedestal?
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:43 PM   #35
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Much worse to be a full bodied, confident woman who's not afraid to stand up for herself and actually wants to help the victims she sees in her visions. Let's punish that assuming bitch with multiple mystical rapes and a bonus coma.
Yeah, thatīs true. Cordelia was better than some other characters who didnīt get punished at all. And she, who had developed in such a positive way, had the worst end of all characters in the Whedonverse.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:26 PM   #36
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This is a good thread. It's hard sometimes because the characters go through so many changes.

My list is just characters from "Buffy" and "Angel." I've never seen "Firefly."
It's hard for me to put them in any order:

Early Buffy, maybe through season 3. I liked her when she was struggling with wanting to be preppy and popular while being forced to fight vampires and such. She was light hearted--mostly--and funny. The longer the show went on for, the more morose she became, the more annoying I found her.

Willow was fine for me until she became a magic obsessed lesbian. I didn't buy her transformation from loving Oz and Xander to not noticing men at all. She could be a bitch sometimes to Cordelia, but I imagine that Willow had no one to stand up for her before Buffy arrived. It's very possible that Cordelia and Harmony were total bitches to Willow and Xander before the action picked up in eps. one.

Early Cordelia. I loved Cordelia through her three years at Buffy and in the first season of Angel. Once she cut her hair and they started making her Saint Cordelia in season three and made her lose a bit of her snarkiness, she lost her appeal. The same thing happened to Spike and the writers of the "OC" did the same thing to Summer Roberts in season 4 of that show.

Harmony. She was pretty much always funny and vapid; she was always really hot too. I really liked that she had a much larger role in Angel season 5 and I wish she had stuck around Angel the first time popped up in season 2--or was it season 3?

Anya. She was the poor man's Cordelia but she usually got some of the funniest lines. She was pretty and had good, funny retorts and quick one liners.

Faith I don't think I'd put in my top five because there wasn't any softness to her character. She was just screwed up and dark. Dawn--well Dawn was just Dawn. Fred I feel was the poor man's Willow. She was the brainy, nerdy girl. I didn't mind her too much but I didn't really care for her turning into a killer demon goddess. And of course there is Tara. God I wish she had been killed off in season 4. I just found her character dull; I don't know, she just struck me as a stick in the mud.

Sorry to write such a long book of a post; I agree that I found the writers to be certainly biased when it came to Buffy and Willow. Those two characters could get away with anything and the writers seemed to want to push the audience into accepting that that was okay. I want main characters who make stupid mistakes and aren't always right and have to suffer for their dumb choices. That's why I always enjoyed "Gilmore Girls."
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:36 PM   #37
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And of course there is Tara. God I wish she had been killed off in season 4. I just found her character dull; I don't know, she just struck me as a stick in the mud.
I hated Tara because I thought she was so boring in season 4, but when I got the chance to go back and watch episodes again, I really liked her, and by the time she was killed off in season 6 she had grown on me.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:48 PM   #38
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25cent, I'm curious that you didn't see any softness in Faith.

I saw some when it came to Buffy herself. There was that scene in s3 where she's just back in the library after her testing with Wesley and then it's Buffy's turn. She's already betrayed Buffy and the Scoobies by joining the Mayor but in that scene there's that instance of when she tried to touch Buffy's arm or shoulder to wish her luck and Buffy (knowing she's been betrayed) shrugs off the touch. I thought that was a real moment of soft vulnerability for her in regards to her feelings for Buffy.

There's also that whole father/daughter thing between her and Wilkins. Not the way the Mayor treated her so much as how she reacted to his treatment. That scene where she tells the Mayor about jumping from the highest point at the quarry back in Boston when the other kids were too chicken. There was no reason for that line of dialogue except to show that despite the wrong she knows she's doing, she responds to the Mayor's fatherly love by opening up to him about something inconsequential (but meaningful to her) from her past. And she tried on that feminine (seriously not Faith) dress because he wanted to see how she'd look in something softer, more feminine. The Mayor was evil and Faith was seriously gone at that point in terms of sanity, but oddly enough, their personal relationship seemed to have brought out the softer side to both of them.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:59 AM   #39
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It has to be said that overall, I wasn't a fan of too many women in the Whedonverse. Seriously. Buffy, Willow, Fred...none of them made an impact of me farther than to irritate and anger.

My Top 5:

Cordelia: Always and throughout, but when she was herself. I didn't care for season 4 or some of the end of season 3 and yet Cordelia to me seemed the strongest character (barring Oz) in the Whedonverse. She said what she wanted to, stood up for what she believed in and those she loved regardless of past or present hurdles, and prior to being demonized, proved herself to be quite extraordinary as a mere human being. Her strength lay in the fact she remained emotionally and morally unbreakable and I loved that about her. She was beautiful, she was a bitch and yet she had the biggest and best heart of anyone. I think psychofilly said it best when she wrote "She had a strength that couldn't be measured by the easy crack of her bones, or the fragility of human life."

Anya: I adored her. I adored everything about her. She took everything Willow and Buffy threw at her and cocked her chin because she loved Xander and that was what mattered most to her - that was what stood her on high moral ground when they said anything harsh or left her out or shot her a dirty look. She was tactless and gorgeous and loyal and wonderful.

Faith: Er...because she kicked Buffy's ass? :cough: No, I just...I don't really know why I loved her. I just did. I liked seeing a slayer who was not idolized by everyone, and who didn't care about what people thought about her. I liked that Faith was a badass with a vulnerable side that only someone truly compassionate and with a similar past could penetrate. Sometimes the grunting and the promiscuity bugged me but overall I liked her a lot.

Drusilla: Why yes, you read correctly. Again, not sure why. I think I found her relationship with Angel very interesting - the way she was the one person he really *chose* and was entirely infactuated with and the fact that she had an extraordinary gift that eventually drove her crazy. I guess I found her...artistic. I'd like to have seen a scene with her and Cordelia.

I have to say that Buffy had her moments - there were times when I genuinely did like her and did feel sorry for her and when Xander cheated on Cordelia, and Willow was a little bitch about it, Buffy was the one who pointed out that Cordy was the injured party. Unfortunately, her treatment of Angel and often Cordelia and even Anya left me less than happy, and less than sympathetic. As did her whining.

So I actually only have 4, not 5. Also, Syn and samsmom, I agree with EVERYTHING you said about Willow. Can we say UGH?
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:27 AM   #40
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Drusilla: Why yes, you read correctly. Again, not sure why. I think I found her relationship with Angel very interesting - the way she was the one person he really *chose* and was entirely infactuated with and the fact that she had an extraordinary gift that eventually drove her crazy. I guess I found her...artistic. I'd like to have seen a scene with her and Cordelia.
One of the most interesting charcters in the whole history of the Whedon-verse.

I would loved to have seen more of her history and if they ever do a television movie (rather than a spin-off, I dont know that the character could sustain a lead role over a long period of time) I want it to be based around her.
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:35 AM   #41
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Ok I just watched 'Firefly' for the first time ever so I have to update my list and put River Tam in there as well! Yeah River!

So my list is (in no particular order):
River
Anya
Faith
Cordelia


Yup only 4.
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