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Old 12-14-2005, 02:14 PM   #16
psychofilly
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I just loved how it seemed like everyone was throwing CC/Cordy's name out. It sort of gives lie to the fact that she and the A/C romance was so "reviled."

And I loved Joss' admission that B/A had run it's course in season three BTVS.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus
Cordy/Angel was not, IMO, a bad idea - it just needed better (more mature?) writers with less myopic vision.
Eh, I still, and will always, believe the only thing that stopped C/A from being done well (and all that killed Xander and a B/X end to BtVS) is the innate fear Joss has of losing his fan base, which he rightly or wrongly thought were the 'shippers. Probably had something to do with the ads and the burnt mail... Anyway, when you're more concerned with how fans will respond to an idea than you are in exploring the idea, you're bound to not do it well.

As far as Fury's certainty that Angel would have been renewed if Joss had left it alone, he needs yet another class in ratings and demographics and how they relate to why a series gets renewed or why another one gets cancelled.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnSkippy
Oh, Timmuh, how you still piss me off. Too bad nothing you're writing is on the air so I could not watch it - again.
Hee hee hee.

Yes, I too feel badly about this - after all, I'm all done with not watching "Firefly", "Wonderfalls" and "The Inside". It's been so long since I've not watched something Timmah! wrote, I almost miss the not watching of it.
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:02 PM   #19
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Oh, one other thing. There seems to be a lot of sympathy for Joss 'cause he was told the series would be cancelled. I'd love to join in, except that Levin had the courtesy to tell Whedon to his face that his services were no longer required, told him with more than enough time left to wrap up Angel and pursue other employment opportunities, and openly expressed his appreciation for the good Whedon, Buffy, and Angel did for the WB.

On the other hand, Whedon unceremoniously dropped two actors from their roles, one of whom had been with him for seven years at that point, did not have the courtesy to tell either of them to their face, did the firing at a point in time where it was too late for either to seek other employment, and has yet to publicly say anything that could even be misconstued as gratitude for their efforts in making him rich and famous.

Which all comes down to this: it appears to me that the WB treated Whedon more than fairly, especially when compared to how Whedon treats his employees.
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm
Eh, I still, and will always, believe the only thing that stopped C/A from being done well (and all that killed Xander and a B/X end to BtVS) is the innate fear Joss has of losing his fan base, which he rightly or wrongly thought were the 'shippers. Probably had something to do with the ads and the burnt mail... Anyway, when you're more concerned with how fans will respond to an idea than you are in exploring the idea, you're bound to not do it well.
Agreed. I used to think it's b/c Joss was a bagel at heart, but part of it probably was fear. Which, IMO is silly--as a writer and not as a shipper, I still think trying to force B/A on us after that ship had long since run its course was just plain bad storytelling. What I did appreciate and enjoy about the ship would be cheapened by forcing a happy ending. IMO the whole point of B/A was to teach them how to love so they could mature and find happiness with the people they were really meant to be with. We saw the reasons why it didn't work--why are we supposed to believe it would work again in the future when nothing really had happened to invalidate those reasons? Furthermore Buffy was a young teenager when she got involved with Angel. It wouldn't make sense to watch her grow up, have relationships with other people, and then come back to her high school sweetheart. Where's the character growth in that? But hey, I'm not here to get into a B/A vs. everyone else discussion. And while I'm going to have to disagree on the B/X thing, I understand the point of what you were trying to say... I think a lot of pandering was being done in the later seasons of BtVS and AtS and I think that has a lot to do with why many of us were left dissatisfied.

Quote:
Thanks for the other link Psychofilly, but scanning it quickly just confirmed one more of my long-held views regarding Minear in particular: he doesn't know the difference between 'a bad idea', and a 'good idea executed badly'. Cordy/Angel was not, IMO, a bad idea - it just needed better (more mature?) writers with less myopic vision. Darla being pregnant with Connor, however? Bad idea from the start, made worse by the aforementioned bad writing tainted by myopic vision.
Completely agree. You put into words nicely the problem I had with the later seasons of AtS. I tried to explain that to a very anti-C/A and anti-AtS friend of mine (who is a huge BtVS fan), and it just ended up being a waste of my time. Oh well, at least we here understand each other (most of the time ).
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Old 12-14-2005, 03:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus
Hee hee hee.

Yes, I too feel badly about this - after all, I'm all done with not watching "Firefly", "Wonderfalls" and "The Inside". It's been so long since I've not watched something Timmah! wrote, I almost miss the not watching of it.
*plotz*

If not for active not watching, I would get no exercise at all. Maybe Timmah! can pander his shows to Richard Simmons and give the poor guy a break from the disco.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:43 PM   #22
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FURY: "Unlike Buffy who ended up with her three friends and were able to end in that way, in Angel's case, everybody that he's ever been close to dies, which is really Angel's story - that he will always outlive the people he cares about."

I always thought the point of Angel was that he when his destiny is fulfilled that he would become human again. Quotes like these go to show how much the guys that took over in the last season really had no clue what was going on.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownsbros3
I always thought the point of Angel was that he when his destiny is fulfilled that he would become human again. Quotes like these go to show how much the guys that took over in the last season really had no clue what was going on.

Or, how much we projected what we wanted to see on the story.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to see this but maybe that was never the writers intent?
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychofilly
Or, how much we projected what we wanted to see on the story.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to see this but maybe that was never the writers intent?
I tend to agree with you on this... This is Joss and Company no one has a happy ending.
More, I remember the shanshu thing not being important anymore or at least to Angel when he talked with Kate, after saving her (Epiphany).... Also Wesley thought that maybe that scroll was related to Connor and not Angel. I think the whole mention of the Shanshu thing in ATS 5 was the writers showing that they had no idea what happened before in the show.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:54 PM   #25
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I always thought the Angel becomes human hope was what missed the point. After all, when does Angel achieve redemption? At what point does Angel make up for all the people he killed and all the mayhem he caused? Is there a numerical value that can be assigned to show where Angel balanced the books, or does the fight go on?

Which is where I agree Fury missed the point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the end of the series, Angel wasn't alone, and in fact was accompanied by two characters who had every chance of as long a life as Angel. So, you know, what's all this about Angel always outliving the people he cares about?
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:55 PM   #26
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Wow, Minear is scary-into rape, isn't he?
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:35 PM   #27
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I feel like a black sheep. Because I seem to be the only one around without the Minear hate. I guess I can understand why other folks my be upset with him. But frankly, I think he's a really good writer. Even dating back to his days on the X-Files I've found most of the episodes he's written to be pretty good. That includes Firely, Angel, Wonderfalls, and The Inside. "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" and "Out of Gas" are two of my favorite hours of any drama.

Maybe he is just reciting the company line regarding C/A or maybe he does believe it. But if I were starting up a TV show Minear would be one of the first guys on my list to try and hire.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:56 PM   #28
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I've always liked Minear's work. He can be pretty hit-and-miss when it comes to writing women (I didn't think his work on "Wonderfalls" was among the show's best), so I wouldn't say I'd hire him to write for any show, but he is a good writer who has constructed some really good plots. He understood Angel really well.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry
I've always liked Minear's work. He can be pretty hit-and-miss when it comes to writing women (I didn't think his work on "Wonderfalls" was among the show's best), so I wouldn't say I'd hire him to write for any show, but he is a good writer who has constructed some really good plots. He understood Angel really well.
I've never seen "Wonderfalls", so I can't comment on that, but some of my favorite AtS episodes of all time were written by TM. He might have been weak when it came to writing for some of the other characters, but I've always thought his grasp of Angel (and Darla) was phenomenal.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:18 PM   #30
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Since I can't remember what eps he wrote or didn't write I guess he wasn't that good .

I do recall that he was very good at writing Angel but I don't think that makes him a good writer. Even if it's not an ensemble show you should always be able to write well for every character, even if one is your voice. I don't think it's OK to sacrifice or write other characters, OOC just because it's easier or you don't understand them and get credited as being a great writer, but that's just my opinion.
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