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Old 03-15-2005, 08:20 AM   #61
SamIAm
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Originally Posted by DamnSkippy
Meh. Good theories one and all, but I think it's far more likely what we saw on screen is what it is.
Sure; what you see on-screen is always what it is. The question is, what was it they put up on-screen? I mean, it's nice that Fury maintains this was an homage to Cordelia, or however he put it, but is that what was on-screen? My answer is, either by intent or crappy writing or a combination of the two, no. YMMV.
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:58 PM   #62
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The best explanation I saw was that when Cordelia died, the Powers allowed her spirit to become corporeal in order to go on one last mission, to put Angel back on track.

Charisma referred to the episode as "a love letter to Cordelia."

The only problem I have with the episode is that she died at the end. I would rather they have found some way to write her off, but leave the door open for a return.

I liked that they let her go out on top, rather than rehashing all that crap from season four. Though, I did think it was in poor taste though that they didn't have at least one scene of the group grieving over her, but that is the fault Steven DeKnight (who wrote Why We Fight), Ben Edlund and Joss Whedon (who collaborated on Smile Time).
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Old 03-19-2005, 06:56 PM   #63
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I got this idea from watching "Soul Purpose" the other day on TNT. I would have done the episode "Damage" first. They could do something similar with Charisma that they did with Christian Kane. By that, I'm referring word getting out that he would appear in "Soul Purpose", but then surprising everyone by showing up two episodes sooner at the end of "Destiny."

Since most of us knew that she was coming back for "You're Welcome", they could have filmed another secret scene for "Soul Purpose."

In one of Angel's dream sequences, Spike comes in after a lengthy battle and gives Wesley a potion to wake up Cordelia. Cordelia then wakes up, thanks Spike, and proclaims him her new champion. Angel then gets further jealous of Spike, because he's supposed to be the one to save her.

Then later on, they could show Angel in the hospital talking to the real Cordelia, and telling her that one day he will find a way to get her back. This would then set up for her real return in "You're Welcome."
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Old 03-30-2005, 03:35 PM   #64
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Instead of the Jasmine arc, I would have dealt with CC's real life pregnancy by making Groosalugg the father, have Cordy go to Pylea for the birth, then return, leaving the baby behind, perhaps because it looked like a demon and she thought it would be better off in Pylea.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:20 PM   #65
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From a thread I did several months ago, ways to put Cordelia into each episode of season five.

Episode #1 Conviction: I would start the episode with Cordelia still in a coma. Angel and Fred are visiting her and asking the doctors that Wolfram & Hart have hired how she's doing. Fred tells Angel that the lab is working on a way to bring her out of the coma. Later in the episode, when they are trying to figure out where to find the child with the deadly virus in him, Cordelia is sent a vision of the school with the SWAT team from Wolfram and Hart trashing the place. She wakes up, and knows she needs to find Angel. She makes her way to his office, and the gang is shocked to see her. Cordelia tells them the vision, and then collapses. In the final scene, she is sitting on the couch sipping on some coffee, and Angel is explaining to her what happened while she was out. While talking he notices an envelope on his desk addressed to him he opens it, finds the amulet, and Spike materializes. The others see a flash from Angel's office and come to see what happened.

Episode #2 Just Rewards: During the confusion of them trying to figure out why he's here, Spike starts lunging at Angel and Cordelia, and then goes right through them. Spike wants them to figure out what's wrong with him. Fred, Wesley, Gunn, and Lorne are willing to help, but Angel and Cordelia tell the rest of them not to trust Spike based on past experience. Later while roaming the halls Cordelia sees Harmony. She then grabs a stake and attacks her, but the rest of the gang pull her off before she can make the kill. They explain to Cordelia that Harmony works for them now. Cordelia says, "So I can boss her around, and she has to do what I say and kiss my ass?" They tell her yes. She responds with a smirk , "I'm liking this new job more and more every minute." Angel then tells her at the end that in Sunnydale, Spike did the saving. He didn't.

Episode #3 Unleashed: When Angel encounters the first werewolf, the victim leaves before he finds out whether or not she's been bit. Cordelia has a vision of the little niece in the house with Aunt Werewolf Girl as the change starts to happen. Cordy and Fred comfort werewolf girl when she finds out what is going on with her. In the last scene, where they are sitting in the office talking, Cordelia gets jealous and storms off when Angel mentions that she (werewolf girl) was giving him a look. He follows after and tries to tell her not to worry about it, and that there is nothing going on with them.

Episode #4 Hellbound: The Powers send Cordelia a vision that lets her see what is happening to Spike when he vanishes. She begins to feel sorry for him and switches sides in the "help him or not to help him" argument telling Angel that no one should have to go through that. Pavayne later takes her hostage, but Spike saves her. He then tells her that he didn't do it for her, he just wanted a piece of Pavayne. They then part ways, but they exchange looks of mutual respect. In the final scene, she and Angel are there when they lock Pavayne up. As they shut the door, she utters the line, "Welcome to Hell." She and Angel then walk off arm and arm.

Episode #5 Halloween: Angel starts wanting to go check on Connor to make sure he's alright. Cordelia and he argue, because she thinks that a visit from him might do more harm than good. They others notice the tension between them as Lorne prepares for the party. The others don't know what's going on, but Lorne wishes that whatever it is they would just kiss and make up. Spike and the gang later walk in to find Angel and Cordelia making out on the couch in his office. (I stress making out instead of doing it because we don't want Angelus showing up.) She later then joins in the fight sequence against the multiple demons at the office party.

Episode #6 The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco - Cordelia helps Numero Cinco up from the floor, and asks him if he's alright. Spike says Angel threw him through the window. The gang gets on him for picking on the little guy. Later, Cordy convinces him to go to Numero Cinco's place and apologize. In the second half of the show, when they are trying to find the amulet to stop the villains, she is sent a vision that tells Angel that Numero Cinco has it on him, and he's about to confront them alone.

Episode #7 Lineage: When introduced to Wesley's father, Cordelia tries to build up what a great job Wesley is doing, but Roger doesn't buy it. Later she and Angel are walking along the streets talking about where things stand between them, when she gets a call on the cellphone telling her that there is chaos at the office. They rush back and help fight off the robots. In the end, she wonders why the Powers didn't send her a vision letting her know what was happening.

Episode #8 Destiny: Cordelia is sent a vision about the cup 's location, and tells Angel and an eavesdropping Spike where it is. After he leaves, Cordy decides to track Eve, but Eve manages to ditch her. Cordy comes back to the office to find out Angel lost to Spike, and she consoles him. He wonders if the prophecy is about him. She assures him that this is just a temporary setback, "We'll get through this somehow....We always do." He rests his head on her shoulder, they hug, and says "I don't know what I'd do without you."

Last edited by brownsbros3; 03-30-2005 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:23 PM   #66
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Episode #9 In Harm's Way - Angel has Cordelia explain to Harmony why live sacrifices are no longer appropriate. Cordelia goes to the bar, because she doesn't trust Harmony to be alone with Fred. Harmony sucker punches her and stuffs her in the closet with Fred and Lorne. Cordelia comes into the meeting room wanting a piece of Harmony, and the rest have to hold her back. Cordelia starts to feel some sympathy for Harmony after the explanation in the end.

Episode #10 Soul Purpose - In the dream where Spike saves the world from the apocalypse, Cordelia gives him a big kiss. In another dream, she taunts Angel about her past relationships with Xander, Groo, and Connor. In reality (since it was Spike mimmicking Angel in City of), Cordy is taken to the home of a rich guy, Spike bursts in, picks her up, and then jumps over the balcony with her. Cordelia gets back to the office to find out what's happened to Angel. She then threatens to kill Eve if she hurts Angel again.

Episode #11 Damage - Cordelia teases Andrew about being a dork. She uses her demon powers to stop Dana's rampage. Cordy asks Andrew who the hell Buffy thinks she is? Cordelia is willing to fight the slayers, but Angel stops her thinking that the 12 to 4 odds aren't in their favor. Cordelia receives a phone call at the end of the episode that her parents have been released from prison.

Episode #12 You're Welcome - Cordelia temporarily leaves Los Angeles to meet her parents. She's been with them for a couple of weeks helping them start over. Wesley calls her to let her know about Angel wanting to quit. Cordelia cuts her visit short and hurries back to L.A. She shows him the Doyle video. Angel pulls Spike off of her, and threatens to kill him he harms Cordelia again. Cordelia joins in interrogating Eve, and stopping Lindsey. Back in the office, Angel thanks her for helping him see the light. He kisses her passionately, and she says You're Welcome. They then head for the bar. It turns out to be a karokee bar. Angel asks Lorne to sing (insert your favorite romantic song here), and then he asks Cordelia, "May I have this dance?" She says yes.

Episode 13 Why We Fight - Cordelia is talking to her mom on her cellphone, but tells her she has to go, because she is heading for a meeting. Cordelia is in the meeting room when they are discussing Lindsey and Eve. Everyone heads out. She forgot her phone in the meeting room, and as she comes back she sees that Lawson has taken the group hostage. Cordelia goes to find Angel, but runs into Spike. Spike tells her the story about Lawson being the only vampire Angel sired after getting his soul back. While Angel and Spike fight Lawson, she cuts Fred, Gunn, and Wesley down. After the fight, Cordelia walks into Angel's office to see how he is doing.

Episode 14 Smile Time - Because of he and Cordelia becoming closer, Angel tells Wesley that he worries about Angelus resurfacing. Wesley reminds him about all the special qualities Angel has in his relationship with Cordy that are different from his ones in the past. Cordelia mentions watching that puppet show as a child. Angel tries to hide being a puppet from her, and she promises not to laugh, however, when he comes out she tries really hard but ends up laughing anyway. Cordelia joins in the fight against the bad puppets including tossing one across the room when he grabs her inappropriately. In the last scene, she is eavesdropping on Wesley and Fred, when Lorne walks by and tells her to use a water glass because it'll help her hear better.

Episode 15 A Hole in the World - Cordy and Fred are engaged in some girl talk while walking down the stairs. She tries to help Fred up after collapsing. Cordelia helps Wes look for a cure. She offers to talk to Giles, but gets pissed at his refusal to help, and starts yelling at him on the phone. Cordelia walks in to see that Fred has died in Wesley's arms. The blast from Illyria tosses Wesley into Cordelia.

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Episode 16 Shells - Cordelia and Wesley rush back to tell the rest of the group what happened. Cordelia uses her demon powers to fight Illyria telling her "They've been my guys a hell of lot longer than yours." Later, she confronts Gunn and tells him that he should have trusted them. Cordelia and Angel warn Wesley to be careful when dealing with Illyria, because they don't know the full extent of her power.

Episode 17 Underneath - Cordelia questions whether or not its a wise idea to go searching for Lindsey considering their past with him. Angel places her in charge of protecting Eve. Cordelia, Harmony, Eve, and Lorne scream in unison when seeing Hamilton punch right through the security guard. Cordelia and Harmony try to hold Hamilton off while Lorne gets Eve to safety. Hamilton knocks them down, but they get up and follow him to the parking lot. Cordelia yells at Angel to watch out. Back in Angel's office, when Lindsey explains what heroes are supposed to do, she reluctantly admits that he's right.

Episode 18 Origin - Cordelia freaks out upon seeing Connor and asks Angel what he's doing there. Cordelia agrees with Angel that they can't take the case. As Cordelia leaves the room, Connor tells Angel that she's kinda hot. Cordelia tells Angel that she thinks its a bad idea for Connor to fight Sahjhan. Cordelia sees Wesley and Illyria leave so she follows them to Vail's. Cordelia and Angel try to convince Wesley not to drop the cube. Connor reveals to Cordelia that he did get his memory back. Cordelia tells Connor that it was all Jasmine's manipulations. She does not have romantic feelings for him, but does love him a maternal sense.

Episode 19 Time Bomb - Cordelia is watching Illyria and Spike fight in the lab. She is cringing from some of the shots that Spike is taking. In one of the alternate timelines, Cordelia is killed by Illyria and Angel mourns over her corpse. Cordelia and Gunn tell the mother that everything will be fine, but are surprised when Angel tells them to give the baby to the demons. She asks him if he's out of his mind. Cordelia and Gunn secretly start to wonder about Angel.

Episode 20 The Girl in Question - Cordelia reluctantly agrees to let Angel go to Rome. He promises her that they will only be going after the head, and not Buffy. Cordelia and Wesley are about to tell the Burkles about their daughter, when Fred mysteriously walks in. After figuring out that it is Illyria, Cordelia tells Wesley in the lab, this is too freaky. After finding out that he did go after Buffy, she packs her things and is getting ready to leave. Angel arrives back and tells Cordelia to wait. He tells her that he's had time to think on the plane ride back. Angel explains about the Immortal always being able to one up him, and that the trip was more about getting back at the Immortal and not renewing his relationship with the slayer. Angel tells Cordelia that she is the one that is in his heart, and finally tells her the three hardest words for any guy to say, "I love you."

Episode 21 Power Play - Cordelia takes Gunn's side in the argument over Senator Bruckner's request. The others try to convince her that Angel is turning evil, but she won't believe it. Cordelia can't believe it when Angel starts talking about amassing power, and storms out of his office. She then secretly follows him to the Black Thorn's meeting. Cordelia tells the others what she saw and agrees that they need to confront him. She volunteers to help in the final fight.

Episode 22 Not Fade Away - Cordelia uses her "last day" to finally make peace with her parents. She meets Angel after sunset. He tells her that he doesn't know if they'll make it, but wants to give her some extra motivation. Angel says that while in Europe they made a side trip to Ireland. He visited his family's former home, and was able to find his mother's wedding ring, which had been hidden by Angelus two centuries earlier. He had a jeweler restore it and add a large diamond to it. Angel then asks if they make it through this if Cordelia would do him the honor of becoming his wife. She says yes. Back at the office, while Angel is fighting Hamilton, Cordelia is fighting Harmony. The fight ends with Cordy staking her. When Angel finishes sipping on Hamilton's neck, Cordelia tells Connor that he (Hamilton) is really gonna get it now. Cordelia and Angel arrive at the meeting place first. She then tends to Gunn's wound. The final two lines of the series:
Cordelia: Looks like its ass kicking time.
Angel: You heard the lady, let's get to work.
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Old 05-28-2005, 07:36 PM   #67
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Here's what I would have done at the end of S4. Instead of Home I would have ended the season with Angel being rescued from the box for real and written the entire season as Angel's nightmarish hallucinations.

Think about it: The network insisted on changes to the show, to make it lighter and brighter> They pushed the reset button anyway, effectively making the events of S4 not-happen, and it would have spared us ConCord, the ridiculous, boring Jasmine arc, the mass character assassinations, and the unbelievable 'everyone joins W&H' stupidity.

One possible plot line for S5: Angel gets rescued by Dru and since JW and/or the network insisted on JM joining the cast, Spike, he's nuts, and the rest of the Fang Gang has to get him back.
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:15 PM   #68
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I like that idea. I was thinking a similar idea only at the end of season five. They're heading into the last battle in the alley, and all of sudden Angel hears a baby cry. He wakes up in his room at the Hyperion, and sees that Connor is still a baby in his crib. Cordelia walks in, sees Angel is still in bed, and says, "God, do I have to everything around here?" She then picks up Connor and starts give him a bottle. Angel thens realizes that all the stuff from the middle of season three to the end of season five was a bad dream.
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Old 05-28-2005, 11:23 PM   #69
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I like those two ideas, but I'm just wondering how you would incorporate the growth of the other characters in that version of end of S3 to S5.

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Old 05-29-2005, 09:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Izzychase
I like those two ideas, but I'm just wondering how you would incorporate the growth of the other characters in that version of end of S3 to S5.

-Iz.
You don't.

If the series continued, you write the characters as you would in S3; or, after Cordy picks up crying baby Connor, you shift to a group shot of the entire gang at the Hyperion.

Fade to black. End of series.
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Old 05-30-2005, 11:57 AM   #71
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This would have been for ending the series. It would also open the door for all of them to return if they would ever get a legit chance to do an Angel movie. Rather than doing some big post apocalyptic stuff, I'd rather them go back to the true spirit of the series.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:40 AM   #72
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re:

anyway here are some more candid thoughs from me I truelly belive arround mid season 3 Joss gave up on Angel and Buffy from the start of season 5 onwards and had a very poor attitude and philosophy and that was that he and the rest of the writters would take a great deal of money from the networks and get as much out of the actors as much as they could and when it ends it ends plain and simple and that is what I think lead to there downfall ie: Angel's cancellation and SMG quitting the role of Buffy that and pushing Spike down our throats every week and personally I think that the character of Spike was and is a giant cancer that manifested and swallowed both shows whole just like the worn out idea of Wolfman & Hart which should of dead and buried at the end of S3.
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Old 06-28-2005, 01:04 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by LordKain
anyway here are some more candid thoughs from me I truelly belive arround mid season 3 Joss gave up on Angel and Buffy from the start of season 5 onwards and had a very poor attitude and philosophy and that was that he and the rest of the writters would take a great deal of money from the networks and get as much out of the actors as much as they could and when it ends it ends plain and simple and that is what I think lead to there downfall ie: Angel's cancellation and SMG quitting the role of Buffy that and pushing Spike down our throats every week and personally I think that the character of Spike was and is a giant cancer that manifested and swallowed both shows whole just like the worn out idea of Wolfman & Hart which should of dead and buried at the end of S3.
Amen.
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:59 AM   #74
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Actually Wolfram and Hart were still functioning at the end of season three. They should have been left dead and buried at the end of the season four episode "Habeas Corpses." (That's the one where the Beast killed everybody in the lawfirm except Lilah.)

Whedon let his own arrogance get in the way. He has such a strong cult of yes-men, that he thinks whatever crap he throws against the wall will strike gold. Have you ever noticed in the interviews he gives that its almost always I, I, I, and never we, we, we?
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:17 AM   #75
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Actually Wolfram and Hart were still functioning at the end of season three. They should have been left dead and buried at the end of the season four episode "Habeas Corpses."
You're right. The W&H plot was played out by then, although I would have loved to have seen Gavin and his army of Zombie Lawyers take over LA.
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