Your love/hate relationship with Joss Whedon

Seoirse · 03-27-2008, 01:09 PM

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, but I'm guessing ST would be the safest place to start such a discussion.

I know I myself have a love/hate 'relationship' with JW, especially when I'm watching S4 and parts of S5. Or worse, when Angel crossed over to Sunnydale.

I hated the way Cordy's character was assasinated towards the end, even towards the end of S3, with the whole 'higher being' storyline.

I've also noticed, from reading with amusement some of your signature files, your opinions on what Whedon has done to the characterisation of Cordy. So, I was wondering what your love/hate relationship with Whedon is like?

Do you seeth in anger at the thought of his thing for blondes (Buffy, Darla, Nina, Harmony....need I say more?)? Or, as far as you're concerned, because we're a fandom, we can kind of exist within our bubble at ST? I was around when we were all getting chased out of general Buffy fandom with pitchforks; I remember ST becoming a haven because for once I wasn't being banned from communities or flamed because I think Angel *is* a separate show and that B/A is as good as history - although I must say, that has more to do with fans in those communities and not so much Whedon himself...

Thoughts, anyone?

xoxo,
Seoirse

tootyfnfruity · 03-28-2008, 04:50 PM

i definately have a love/hate thing for joss i love him cause he gave me ATS and also BTVS and especially for giving us cordy and angel but i hate him for what he ultimately did to Ats, cangel and cordy.
i also have a love hate for yw i love the episode since it was the only time in season 5 that i felt the gang were in character and loved cordy/angel interaction but hate it because she died killing my ship and imo the end of what was my favorite show of all time

DamnSkippy · 03-28-2008, 06:03 PM

I just hate him. Can't really say more than that and it's mostly based on how he treats people and less about his writing although that's certainly enough to despise him. As far as what he gave us, I give more credit to others associated with the show (like Greenwalt and other writers and showrunners) who were more responsible for keeping the characters "in character" so I don't have to love him for Angel and Cordy.

bigbird811 · 03-29-2008, 12:22 AM

I don't have either a love or a hate relationship with JW. I have a 'You had a show, and I was a fan of it' relationship with him. I admittedly did curse his name for a week after I finished watching s4, and I still get kind of mad when I remember what he did to C/A and Cordy and AtS itself, but it is human nature to get a little upset if something we love is taken away. Right now, I really don't have the mental energy to do anything more than 'Meh' at him.

Luna · 03-29-2008, 09:23 PM

I hate him because he had destroyed and killed Cordy, my favorite character, and I hated season 5, it was not the same show anymore I got hooked with. The show could have been better and it could have been done so much with Cordy but he destroyed it all.

samsmom · 03-29-2008, 10:54 PM

I have no love for Joss Whedon. I think he's a fantastic writer, but needs a very short lease in order not to go off the deep end. I don't understand the sycophant worshipping that goes on at some comms and sites, or the idea that if he farts on a piece of paper, it *must* be good enough to commit to a TV screen.

I'm not sure if I would say I hate him but I can definitely say I'm over him. Like Damnskippy said, he may have created Cordelia and Angel but tons of other writers had a hand in their development as well, so I won't give him total credit for the characters I love. I can say for sure that I will never give anything else he does any kind of attention or acclaim again since his whole reason for hurting his characters is to hurt his audience.

Even a masochist will say enough's enough and get out of the handcuffs eventually.

DamnSkippy · 03-30-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsmom

...he may have created Cordelia and Angel...

Actually, Greenwalt created the character of Angel so we don't owe him squat for that.

Morrigan · 03-30-2008, 10:00 AM

You know it's a wierd thing I can't say I hate him b/c I don't really know him as a person really. What I can say is that, what I do know I don't like. He comes across as someone buying into his own hype as well as the worst kind of male employer.

I had a simliar one at work several years back. My old manager seemed like a great guy but when one of my co-workers got pregnant and started requiring more time off, or showing up late and leaving early (even though she got all of her work done) he became down right nasty to her. As if her pregnancy was the worst thing in the world. Given the fact that he and his wife had 3 kids and his wife's company let her work from home on a full time basis. I often wondered how he would feel if someone had put his wife through that kind of crap while pregant. I think that's one of the reasons what happend to CC bothered/angered me so much, it hit very close to home.

As far as JW as a writer/director/producer. I've yet to see him do anything post early Buffy that makes me think he's as could as people claim.

As much as I never liked Minear on ATS his episodes on FF were better than Wheedon's.
His dialouge for WitW (inside the dancers dressing room) was horribly cheesy
He doesn't have the ability to stay true to characters and stories, rather sacrifices them to his, ego/whim/coolness/favorite new toy

samsmom · 03-30-2008, 12:49 PM

I agree Morrigan -

He doesn't keep the integrity of the characters. They live to serve his stories, instead of the stories serving the characters. He also doesn't care too much about continuity if it contradicts what arc he wants to do.

And I often wonder how he would have reacted if his favorite pet actress AA had gotten pregnant in the middle of his Illaryia arc? Would he have been as vicious to her as he was to CC? Or what about Aly Hanigan? Would he have written his precious Willow out of the show if she'd end up knocked up in the middle of "magic crack"?

Livvie · 03-30-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsmom

And I often wonder how he would have reacted if his favorite pet actress AA had gotten pregnant in the middle of his Illaryia arc? Would he have been as vicious to her as he was to CC? Or what about Aly Hanigan? Would he have written his precious Willow out of the show if she'd end up knocked up in the middle of "magic crack"?

Oh man, if anyone can find the quote, after Ats ended, someone asked him about Amy Acker's pregnancy and writing it in with Illyria. He made a flippant comment about "Nobody wants to see Illyria looking like she is wearing a beach ball" or something like that. If someone finds it, I will love you forever.

And if I say how I really feel, I know that I won't be able to stop the venom that will spew forth from my mouth. Plenty of people here know how I feel about Whedon. Putting aside how poorly he treats his actors, how he pits them against each other, and plays head games, you can always tell a Whedon written episode of ATS. The characters don't act like themselves, the dialogue feels forced and sometimes not at all in character. He doesn't give a crap about the characters, only about the story. And if you are reading the new comics, you can see how continuity is a word he doesn't know the meaning of.

I also don't get the down right cultish love for the man. He created characters but left to his own devices, he spirals out of control. That is why he had a team of writers. He had people telling him no, or that contradicts canon. Now that he doesn't have that, well, I haven't seen much praise for the comics. Just a lot of "let's wait and see, Joss is god, he has a plan" stuff.

In short, I am one of those people that wished Whedon had handed full creative control of Angel over to Greenwalt and let him run with it. If you've ever seen a Greenwalt show like Profit or Miracles, THAT man is genius. All my love for ATS goes to David Greenwalt.

Prima · 03-30-2008, 02:22 PM

What Morrigan said.™

tojoson · 03-30-2008, 02:47 PM

To show how much I respect him, I absolutely refuse to capitalize his name.

Lovin' Lorne · 03-30-2008, 09:01 PM

What Morrigan said, coupled with What bigbird811 said™ prettty much works for me.

At this point in time I don't have much of a feeling for him one way or the other. He's totally off my radar, and there's nothing of his coming up that interests me. And considering his recent track record, I seriously doubt I'll ever get involved in anything he does again.

What I dislike most about "him" however, actually has nothing to do with him per se; it's those rabbid "Joss is God" fans. It's embarrasing to see what grown people will do in the "Name of Joss". It's disgusting. In all reality, I think that's what turns me off about him the most.

Emmangel · 03-31-2008, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovin' Lorne

What I dislike most about "him" however, actually has nothing to do with him per se; it's those rabbid "Joss is God" fans. It's embarrasing to see what grown people will do in the "Name of Joss". It's disgusting. In all reality, I think that's what turns me off about him the most.

Seconded. Sadly I happen to be friends with some of them (also not fans of CC). Drives me nuts when it comes up in conversation.

tootyfnfruity · 03-31-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livvie

Oh man, if anyone can find the quote, after Ats ended, someone asked him about Amy Acker's pregnancy and writing it in with Illyria. He made a flippant comment about "Nobody wants to see Illyria looking like she is wearing a beach ball" or something like that. If someone finds it, I will love you forever.

And if I say how I really feel, I know that I won't be able to stop the venom that will spew forth from my mouth. Plenty of people here know how I feel about Whedon. Putting aside how poorly he treats his actors, how he pits them against each other, and plays head games, you can always tell a Whedon written episode of ATS. The characters don't act like themselves, the dialogue feels forced and sometimes not at all in character. He doesn't give a crap about the characters, only about the story. And if you are reading the new comics, you can see how continuity is a word he doesn't know the meaning of.

I also don't get the down right cultish love for the man. He created characters but left to his own devices, he spirals out of control. That is why he had a team of writers. He had people telling him no, or that contradicts canon. Now that he doesn't have that, well, I haven't seen much praise for the comics. Just a lot of "let's wait and see, Joss is god, he has a plan" stuff.

In short, I am one of those people that wished Whedon had handed full creative control of Angel over to Greenwalt and let him run with it. If you've ever seen a Greenwalt show like Profit or Miracles, THAT man is genius. All my love for ATS goes to David Greenwalt.

Why did DG leave ATS? Which of course when it turned to crap as far as i am concerned

03-27-2008, 01:09 PM	#1
Seoirse Team Cordy #1013 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 90	Your love/hate relationship with Joss Whedon I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, but I'm guessing ST would be the safest place to start such a discussion. I know I myself have a love/hate 'relationship' with JW, especially when I'm watching S4 and parts of S5. Or worse, when Angel crossed over to Sunnydale. I hated the way Cordy's character was assasinated towards the end, even towards the end of S3, with the whole 'higher being' storyline. I've also noticed, from reading with amusement some of your signature files, your opinions on what Whedon has done to the characterisation of Cordy. So, I was wondering what your love/hate relationship with Whedon is like? Do you seeth in anger at the thought of his thing for blondes (Buffy, Darla, Nina, Harmony....need I say more?)? Or, as far as you're concerned, because we're a fandom, we can kind of exist within our bubble at ST? I was around when we were all getting chased out of general Buffy fandom with pitchforks; I remember ST becoming a haven because for once I wasn't being banned from communities or flamed because I think Angel is a separate show and that B/A is as good as history - although I must say, that has more to do with fans in those communities and not so much Whedon himself... Thoughts, anyone? xoxo, Seoirse

03-28-2008, 04:50 PM	#2
tootyfnfruity Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: good qustion Posts: 363	i definately have a love/hate thing for joss i love him cause he gave me ATS and also BTVS and especially for giving us cordy and angel but i hate him for what he ultimately did to Ats, cangel and cordy. i also have a love hate for yw i love the episode since it was the only time in season 5 that i felt the gang were in character and loved cordy/angel interaction but hate it because she died killing my ship and imo the end of what was my favorite show of all time __________________ I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity. Edgar Allan Poe avatar by MelBelle

03-28-2008, 06:03 PM	#3
DamnSkippy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 4,895	I just hate him. Can't really say more than that and it's mostly based on how he treats people and less about his writing although that's certainly enough to despise him. As far as what he gave us, I give more credit to others associated with the show (like Greenwalt and other writers and showrunners) who were more responsible for keeping the characters "in character" so I don't have to love him for Angel and Cordy. __________________ Deb ~ Bark/Angel Chipper/Shipper C/A Stillness - Non-Animated Icon Challenge Community devoted to Cordy and Angel David Stillness - Non-animated Icon Challenge Community for David Boreanaz Bones Hush - Textless Icon Challenge Community for the show Bones Nonna Rosina Productions

03-29-2008, 12:22 AM	#4
bigbird811 Lieutenant McMuffin Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 184	I don't have either a love or a hate relationship with JW. I have a 'You had a show, and I was a fan of it' relationship with him. I admittedly did curse his name for a week after I finished watching s4, and I still get kind of mad when I remember what he did to C/A and Cordy and AtS itself, but it is human nature to get a little upset if something we love is taken away. Right now, I really don't have the mental energy to do anything more than 'Meh' at him. __________________ "Evil's still afoot." *"And I'm almost out of that nancy-boy hair-gel I like so much."*

03-29-2008, 09:23 PM	#5
Luna The heart never dies Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 542	I hate him because he had destroyed and killed Cordy, my favorite character, and I hated season 5, it was not the same show anymore I got hooked with. The show could have been better and it could have been done so much with Cordy but he destroyed it all. __________________ Nothing on earth stays forever, but none of your deeds were in vain, deep in our hearts you will live again, you´re gone to the home of the brave.

03-29-2008, 10:54 PM	#6
samsmom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California Posts: 713	I have no love for Joss Whedon. I think he's a fantastic writer, but needs a very short lease in order not to go off the deep end. I don't understand the sycophant worshipping that goes on at some comms and sites, or the idea that if he farts on a piece of paper, it must be good enough to commit to a TV screen. I'm not sure if I would say I hate him but I can definitely say I'm over him. Like Damnskippy said, he may have created Cordelia and Angel but tons of other writers had a hand in their development as well, so I won't give him total credit for the characters I love. I can say for sure that I will never give anything else he does any kind of attention or acclaim again since his whole reason for hurting his characters is to hurt his audience. Even a masochist will say enough's enough and get out of the handcuffs eventually.

03-30-2008, 10:00 AM	#8
Morrigan Who Da Man?! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Garden State Posts: 9,854	You know it's a wierd thing I can't say I hate him b/c I don't really know him as a person really. What I can say is that, what I do know I don't like. He comes across as someone buying into his own hype as well as the worst kind of male employer. I had a simliar one at work several years back. My old manager seemed like a great guy but when one of my co-workers got pregnant and started requiring more time off, or showing up late and leaving early (even though she got all of her work done) he became down right nasty to her. As if her pregnancy was the worst thing in the world. Given the fact that he and his wife had 3 kids and his wife's company let her work from home on a full time basis. I often wondered how he would feel if someone had put his wife through that kind of crap while pregant. I think that's one of the reasons what happend to CC bothered/angered me so much, it hit very close to home. As far as JW as a writer/director/producer. I've yet to see him do anything post early Buffy that makes me think he's as could as people claim. As much as I never liked Minear on ATS his episodes on FF were better than Wheedon's. His dialouge for WitW (inside the dancers dressing room) was horribly cheesy He doesn't have the ability to stay true to characters and stories, rather sacrifices them to his, ego/whim/coolness/favorite new toy __________________ ME: Farking up all your good memories one character at a time ~ Prima

03-30-2008, 12:49 PM	#9
samsmom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California Posts: 713	I agree Morrigan - He doesn't keep the integrity of the characters. They live to serve his stories, instead of the stories serving the characters. He also doesn't care too much about continuity if it contradicts what arc he wants to do. And I often wonder how he would have reacted if his favorite pet actress AA had gotten pregnant in the middle of his Illaryia arc? Would he have been as vicious to her as he was to CC? Or what about Aly Hanigan? Would he have written his precious Willow out of the show if she'd end up knocked up in the middle of "magic crack"?

03-30-2008, 02:22 PM	#11
Prima I have no idea... Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ...what you're talking about. Posts: 2,045	What Morrigan said.™ __________________ Thank Disco Jesus for Saturdays... "...speculating on the sadomasochistic dominance games of the White House staff is always more interesting and topical than shipper wars." --Cordy's Bitch "OMG GOD HATES ME BECAUSE HE DIDN'T MAKE JESUS/PETER CANON! I'M QUITTING THIS FANDOM, AND I AM TOTALLY NOT FINISHING REVELATIONS!" --latara

03-30-2008, 02:47 PM	#12
tojoson Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: st. clair shores, michigan usa Posts: 4,450	To show how much I respect him, I absolutely refuse to capitalize his name. __________________ don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened

03-30-2008, 09:01 PM	#13
Lovin' Lorne Too Hot For Words Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,780	What Morrigan said, coupled with What bigbird811 said™ prettty much works for me. At this point in time I don't have much of a feeling for him one way or the other. He's totally off my radar, and there's nothing of his coming up that interests me. And considering his recent track record, I seriously doubt I'll ever get involved in anything he does again. What I dislike most about "him" however, actually has nothing to do with him per se; it's those rabbid "Joss is God" fans. It's embarrasing to see what grown people will do in the "Name of Joss". It's disgusting. In all reality, I think that's what turns me off about him the most. __________________ Tomorrow Never Knows Where's Blue? Please help if you can.

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