ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark - Page 2

psychofilly · 08-29-2005, 01:40 PM

Exactly, if we had gotten a real payoff for Cordelia's "evil" arc, then today I might not have had much problem with it, even though AN was one of the few episodes ever that made me so ~~ill~~ mad that I had to walk away from the TV set and go calm down.

The thing is, for me, from the moment Cordelia was demonized, the PTB's started glossing over the consequences, taking shortcuts with the story and ignoring the threads they had already set up... Remember the surround sound visions, Cordy missing signifigant clues about her friends behavior? I thought they were trying to show that Cordy was breaking with reality, possibly going to be driven insane a la Birthday!Angel. Turns out it meant nothing. After Inside Out, it turns out whole chunks of continuity and plot meant nothing.

When I really thought about it and went back, Birthday and the episodes following it is when they really broke the contract with us, the audience. Where there good episodes after that? Sure, all through four and five there were some great episodes mixed in with the duds. But on the whole, it never reached the greatness of what came before.

raregem · 08-29-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel.

I know but I didn't enjoy the show when he joined.

galathea · 08-29-2005, 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by psychofilly

Exactly, if we had gotten a real payoff for Cordelia's "evil" arc, then today I might not have had much problem with it, even though AN was one of the few episodes ever that made me so ~~ill~~ mad that I had to walk away from the TV set and go calm down.

Same here. I was feeling sick after that last 2 minutes. I needed to stop watching the show for some days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

Remember the surround sound visions, Cordy missing signifigant clues about her friends behavior? I thought they were trying to show that Cordy was breaking with reality, possibly going to be driven insane a la Birthday!Angel. Turns out it meant nothing. After Inside Out, it turns out whole chunks of continuity and plot meant nothing.

Uhm what do you mean here? Where did she miss clues about which friends behaviour? Are you talking S3 or 4?

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

When I really thought about it and went back, Birthday and the episodes following it is when they really broke the contract with us, the audience. Where there good episodes after that? Sure, all through four and five there were some great episodes mixed in with the duds. But on the whole, it never reached the greatness of what came before.

Actually I really love the S3 story after Birthday. The Wes-Angel-Holtz-Connor Story arc had a tremendous emotional impact on me. To lose his only child over the betrayal of a trusted friend is the most horrible event imaginable. On the other hand said trusted friend sacrifices everything thats important to him, to do what he thinks protects his best friend and the child, only to find himself bleeding to death and isolated from the people he loves. My heart just broke for both of them. Sleep Tight, Forgiving, A New World and Benediction are some of the best episodes in that season imho.

v120176 · 08-29-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galathea

Uhm what do you mean here? Where did she miss clues about which friends behaviour? Are you talking S3 or 4?
.

Do you remember when she had the vision that Angel and Connor went to fight together in ATS 3? Well, she had a total vision (like a 3D one) of the place and didn't see Wes and Lilah. That could be not that serious and could be justificated. But after that she said to Angel that she saw him and Connor playing and laughting after the fight. She said something like "I don't know why or how but the powers let me be inside that vision again." What she really miss was Holtz watching them and probably the reason for that new vision, that was easy to see if you have again a 3D vision.
The same when she had that vision in Tomorrow, after Groo's departure when she sees herself, with her white dress and thinks it's hint about loving Angel, when really (if you see the episode again) what Astral Cordy says is exactly what she says to Skip after that. It was a warning (even Minear says that).
So she missed or failed to see Wes, Lilah there (and that the girl was Justine), Holtz watching Angel and Connor, and not understanding what the vision about herself was.

galathea · 08-29-2005, 06:48 PM

Oh okay ... I see where you are heading now. I am shocked that this fact eluded me lol. I guess I just assumed that the visions weren't that exact .. and Holtz, Lilah and Wes weren't exactley in line of vision and Cordy didn't know Justine, except someone would have shown her a photo. But I see now that it can be taken as a hint that the powers were even betraying her then or that she missed important clues the powers sended her.

About the Cordy talking to herself scene: I always had the theory that this particularly vision was send to her by the powers to be (mis)interpreted exactley as she did to give her a strong reason (the realisation of her love for Angel) NOT to fall for the ascension gig Skip is offering her. But unfortunately it didn't work /sigh.

But anyways that still doesn't explain that she missed clues in her friends behaviour but only that she might have missed clues in her visions.

CordyAngelSeer · 08-29-2005, 07:23 PM

BTVS I would say jumped the shark after season 3. from what I've heard season 4 was blah with the Initiave storyline and the suddenly Willow is gay thing. Plus I heard season 5 was also pretty blah was the whole guess what Buffy has a sister.

ATS, contrary to popular opinion I really liked season 4, and would have loved a resolution in season 5 big Angel/Cordy love, but season 5 I think jumped the shark with the loss of CC & Cordy, and season 4 I supposed because of the lack of non coma Cordy towards the end of 4.

psychofilly · 08-29-2005, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galathea

Oh okay ... I see where you are heading now. I am shocked that this fact eluded me lol. I guess I just assumed that the visions weren't that exact .. and Holtz, Lilah and Wes weren't exactley in line of vision and Cordy didn't know Justine, except someone would have shown her a photo. But I see now that it can be taken as a hint that the powers were even betraying her then or that she missed important clues the powers sended her.

Well sure, you could look at it this way, but essentially Cordy's visions changed signifigantly and the fact that she missed things was never brought up later when it became obvious that she was missing clues.

Quote:

About the Cordy talking to herself scene: I always had the theory that this particularly vision was send to her by the powers to be (mis)interpreted exactley as she did to give her a strong reason (the realisation of her love for Angel) NOT to fall for the ascension gig Skip is offering her. But unfortunately it didn't work /sigh.

And this shows a pattern of behavior, decisions made on shakey logic. Since when has a vision been a reward? They have always been a warning, and yet twice in a week, she suddenly "assumes" they are a reward/something good? It doesn't pass the logic test.

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But anyways that still doesn't explain that she missed clues in her friends behaviour but only that she might have missed clues in her visions.

She completely missed that Fred was attracted to Gunn, and pushed Wes, making him think that Fred liked him, which set him up for cruel rejection, which helped to isolate him. I can't remember the specifics, but she completely missed something going on with Gunn, giving him advice what was it... didn't he try and break up with Fred because of something Cordy said. Point is, she was supposed to be observant, and her judgement went off the deep end because she was comprimised or distracted (or both) and no one else seemed to notice.

While I think there were some totally powerfull kick ass episodes and mini-arcs after Birthday, the ones you mentioned and at times in season 4 & 5, the story overall never held up for me. Just because I felt for Angel's situation, and was totally rivited to several episodes, the Holtz resolution, the ascension, Cordy's and Angel's almost pathological denial... then the execution of season four with the fact that W&H were able to corrupt everybody? From Birthday on (for me) it was never as satisfying as it was before.

DamnSkippy · 08-29-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

She completely missed that Fred was attracted to Gunn, and pushed Wes, making him think that Fred liked him, which set him up for cruel rejection, which helped to isolate him. I can't remember the specifics, but she completely missed something going on with Gunn, giving him advice what was it... didn't he try and break up with Fred because of something Cordy said.

Cordy mistook Gunn's depression as him feeling guilty for being happy with Fred while everyone else was miserable. She told him to make the most of every day because you never know when it will be your last. He took that as advice to show Fred the best day of her life and his, but I don't think he planned to break up with her until that moment he did it.

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Point is, she was supposed to be observant, and her judgement went off the deep end because she was comprimised or distracted (or both) and no one else seemed to notice.

I'd have to put her cluelessness about Angel's feelings in that category, especially once Groo showed up. How much more more like kicked, jealous puppy could he look? Especially when he gave her the money and told her to go...if she couldn't read his feelings in his eyes right then, she had to be possessed.

Has anyone written a fic where Groo was sent by Jasmine to get Cordy out of the picture so Connor could be kidnapped and get him into another dimension for his growth spurt? I know I've read fics where Groo turns out evil later, but none where he was part of the plan to begin with.

galathea · 08-30-2005, 03:21 AM

I see your points. I have never given the change of the visions so much thought I admit.

On some points though I wouldn't lay blame to Cordys feet. Even fair Cordelia isn't perfect. Missing Gunns attraction to Fres for example. While Wes confided with her about his feelings Gunn kept it more to himself. And Gunn tried to break up with Fred in Double or Nothing to protect her from Jenoff, the SoulSucker, not because of something Cordy said.

The thing that bugs me a lot more than Cordy being less observant in the 2nd half of S3 is that Angel actually BELIEVED Cordelia would sleep with Connor. While one would easily be able to miss Cordys slightly changed accuracy towards the visions in S3, I never got why nobody of team AI got a clue about Cordy not being Cordy in S4. That made absolutely no sense to me. The same goes for everybody joining W&H in a heartbeat in Home.

brownsbros3 · 08-31-2005, 09:15 PM

I think that instance he was too shocked at what he saw to think rationally. If I was a singled dad, got remarried, and then came home to find my teenage son having sex with my new wife, I wouldn't be very rational in that situation. I probably wouldn't even think to call Jerry Springer and cash in.

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.

As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared.

raregem · 08-31-2005, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.

She was going to turn evil for no reason?

DamnSkippy · 08-31-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raregem

She was going to turn evil for no reason?

They never explained what the reason would be (I don't think at the time they had figured that part out), but there would have been a reason. The did say it would have been Cordelia being evil and not a possession. Perhaps the part demon half of her (I guess that would technically still be "Cordelia") would finally manifest as something evil. We'll never know now.

Dimitri · 08-31-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raregem

She was going to turn evil for no reason?

Well, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

LaLa247 · 08-31-2005, 11:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Dimitri

Well, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What the hell are you talking about?

Dimitri · 08-31-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaLa247

What the hell are you talking about?

Gah, I have to do the long(er) version?

08-29-2005, 01:40 PM	#16
psychofilly My Angel eats nuns. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 5,520	Exactly, if we had gotten a real payoff for Cordelia's "evil" arc, then today I might not have had much problem with it, even though AN was one of the few episodes ever that made me so ~~ill~~ mad that I had to walk away from the TV set and go calm down. The thing is, for me, from the moment Cordelia was demonized, the PTB's started glossing over the consequences, taking shortcuts with the story and ignoring the threads they had already set up... Remember the surround sound visions, Cordy missing signifigant clues about her friends behavior? I thought they were trying to show that Cordy was breaking with reality, possibly going to be driven insane a la Birthday!Angel. Turns out it meant nothing. After Inside Out, it turns out whole chunks of continuity and plot meant nothing. When I really thought about it and went back, Birthday and the episodes following it is when they really broke the contract with us, the audience. Where there good episodes after that? Sure, all through four and five there were some great episodes mixed in with the duds. But on the whole, it never reached the greatness of what came before. __________________ "Great, now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day." (Cordy) "They say that inside every fat woman there is a skinny woman just waiting to get out...well, I ate that bitch."

08-29-2005, 06:48 PM	#20
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Oh okay ... I see where you are heading now. I am shocked that this fact eluded me lol. I guess I just assumed that the visions weren't that exact .. and Holtz, Lilah and Wes weren't exactley in line of vision and Cordy didn't know Justine, except someone would have shown her a photo. But I see now that it can be taken as a hint that the powers were even betraying her then or that she missed important clues the powers sended her. About the Cordy talking to herself scene: I always had the theory that this particularly vision was send to her by the powers to be (mis)interpreted exactley as she did to give her a strong reason (the realisation of her love for Angel) NOT to fall for the ascension gig Skip is offering her. But unfortunately it didn't work /sigh. But anyways that still doesn't explain that she missed clues in her friends behaviour but only that she might have missed clues in her visions.

08-29-2005, 07:23 PM	#21
CordyAngelSeer Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 146	BTVS I would say jumped the shark after season 3. from what I've heard season 4 was blah with the Initiave storyline and the suddenly Willow is gay thing. Plus I heard season 5 was also pretty blah was the whole guess what Buffy has a sister. ATS, contrary to popular opinion I really liked season 4, and would have loved a resolution in season 5 big Angel/Cordy love, but season 5 I think jumped the shark with the loss of CC & Cordy, and season 4 I supposed because of the lack of non coma Cordy towards the end of 4.

08-30-2005, 03:21 AM	#24
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	I see your points. I have never given the change of the visions so much thought I admit. On some points though I wouldn't lay blame to Cordys feet. Even fair Cordelia isn't perfect. Missing Gunns attraction to Fres for example. While Wes confided with her about his feelings Gunn kept it more to himself. And Gunn tried to break up with Fred in Double or Nothing to protect her from Jenoff, the SoulSucker, not because of something Cordy said. The thing that bugs me a lot more than Cordy being less observant in the 2nd half of S3 is that Angel actually BELIEVED Cordelia would sleep with Connor. While one would easily be able to miss Cordys slightly changed accuracy towards the visions in S3, I never got why nobody of team AI got a clue about Cordy not being Cordy in S4. That made absolutely no sense to me. The same goes for everybody joining W&H in a heartbeat in Home.

08-31-2005, 09:15 PM	#25
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	I think that instance he was too shocked at what he saw to think rationally. If I was a singled dad, got remarried, and then came home to find my teenage son having sex with my new wife, I wouldn't be very rational in that situation. I probably wouldn't even think to call Jerry Springer and cash in. The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil. As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared.