Woah...

Yoda-Mira · 02-02-2009, 03:15 PM

It's been since October of 04 since I've posted on this board! I can't believe it's still up and running and after going through several posts, I see a lot of the original members are still here. That's really awesome.

I started losing interest in Angel around the time of that episode in Season 4 where Angel had that hallucination throughout the entire ep (sorry, I can't think of the name of it), but I think I stuck with it through You're Welcome. About a month ago I turned on TNT and it was on! After several years of not watching it, I decided to sit through an episode (Parting Gifts) and my love for the show has been renewed. It brings back such fond memories of the times I had with my C/A buddies online (I know, dork.) and the fan art and such.

Anyway, I went over to the IMDB boards and also remembered how absolutely ludicrous this fandom is and how frustrating it can be. When I was around 12 I started watching BtVS and was a die-hard Bangel fan, probably was up until the second season of Angel when I started liking C/A. It's been 8 years since then and I'm now 20 and looking back on all of it has given me some perspective. I've fallen in love since then, done the college try (am still doing it actually), and moved out on my own. I tried re-watching BtVS, but for some reason found it uninteresting (and Buffy, herself, was intolerable!), I felt like it was so campy, whereas the first time around I found so much depth and meaning to the show. I thought Buffy was a great character, but after re-watching the third season I find myself fast forwarding through most of her scenes. It's just an endless cycle of poor me/silly quip and I also found her to be incredibly self-centered at times. The only episode I actually liked her in was The Prom. I really must give credit to SMG for the performance she gave in her bedroom with Willow after her and Angel had broken up. It brings tears to me eyes every time I watch.

Anyway, it seems like everyone is always debating who Angel's "true love"/"soul-mate" was. I don't understand why this question is asked repeatedly. I myself, don't believe in the soul-mate theory anyway, so this could be why I have this view. People love different people all the time. People fall in and out of love all the time. When I look back I see Buffy as Angel's first love. First love can completely take you over. Buffy was a teenager for God's sake. Of course, it was a torrid, passionate affair! I think anybody who has ever fallen in love can explain this quite easily. I always see them as Romeo and Juliet. They are so busy fighting, saving the world, and trying to stay in a relationship - that at some point you have to wonder how long that passion would last if they weren't slayer/vampire. But I guess this is most of the thrill that comes with being a Bangel fan.

When watching AtS 1-3, Cordelia and Angel are the best of friends that care and would die for each other. It wasn't this romantic notion of "love at first sight". They built a solid foundation, trusted one another, and shared common interests. That to me is my idea of romance. My theory is that, being these are supernatural shows, Bangel are a supernatural romance, and C/A are a more normal marital relationship. Another problem is that a lot of people don't understand that ithey are two separate shows. You'll notice that if Angel is on BtVS, he is in love with Buffy. When Angel is on AtS he is in love with Cordelia (for the better part of the series). People on the IMDB board were saying that Angel was in love with Buffy and only Buffy and that it is made clear in Season 5. Well, I recently saw S5 and I don't understand this theory either. A quote that people use to support this fact is "ours is a forever love". This confuses me even more, because when I watching the show, that entire episode just seemed like a parody of both Bangel and Spuffy's relationships? Am I wrong in thinking this? I thought it was a funny episode and if I would have taken anything in it too seriously I would think it terrible writing. I mean, the cookie line? It was supposed to be funny, right?!

I won't get into the assassination of Cordelia's character because even today I find it sad. From what I used to hear it was a lot of backstage politics between Charisma and Joss. I don't think Joss intended to murder Cordelia's character. I think he had a limited time to choose between keeping Charisma's pregnancy underwraps during the entire season or play it on the show. If Charisma hadn't gotten pregnant I think the entire series would have been very different and it's sad that we'll never know. However, I don't think Joss ever much cared for Cordelia's character in the first place and I think it is common knowledge that he is for B/A 100%. It's not as if making Cordelia evil without ripping her character to shreds could've been terribly difficult.

One more thing that I wanted to touch on. Fred. I'm not sure if many people are a fan of her, but I NEVER liked her. Way back 6 years ago, I didn't like her and re-watching the series I still don't like her. Don't ask me why. She's just very annoying. Maybe it's fact that at some point in the show, every guy is interested in her? Or that she's a super innocent know-it-all with a Texan accent? Yeah, these things have always bothered me. This obviously never boded well for me, considering Joss treasured her. Now in the middle of Season 5 she died and that saved the season for me. AA was incredible as Illyria and I finally became genuinely interested in Wesley since the end of S3. The dynamic they shared was great to watch on screen and gave the finale some depth. I'm glad they chose to do this. I would have liked to see Cordy's "evil storyline" in Illyria instead of that weird Jasmine thing. Alas, it was not meant to be.

////end rant.

I just had to get this out somewhere, just some things I've been thinking about since re-watching the series. Now a couple questions (if you've made it this far!):

1) What episode is it that Buffy walks into the Bronze and sees Angel sitting at the table with Cordelia laughing?
2) Is Cordelia mentioned very much in the Comic Books? If so, any favorite lines or drawings you can tell me about?
3) Can you recommend me your favorite C/A fan fiction?
4) Are there any C/A fansites still in existence?

Also, if you disagree with anything I've said let me know! I'd love to hear your opinions!

SamIAm · 02-02-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda-Mira

1) What episode is it that Buffy walks into the Bronze and sees Angel sitting at the table with Cordelia laughing?

Can't help with the other three questions, but the episode was Halloween.

[[giggles]] · 02-03-2009, 06:32 PM

On the soul mates front, I kind of agree with you. In fanfiction, I like the idea of Angel making Cordy his mate for life. I love the idea of growing alongside in the same direction at the same speed as someone else.

However, my realistic side says that doesn't happen much these days. In this day and age, when we base marriages on love, instead of on procreation and the raising of children, it's not entirely realistic to expect your marriage to last forever. It's a nice dream/thought, and I'd be insanely happy if it were true, but it's sadly not. A lot of the time, people grow in different directions at different speeds. And since we marry for love, some people are no longer willing to stay married, simply because they fell in love with someone else and decided to get married to them.

The thing with Angel and Cordy, though, is even though Angel is in love with Cordelia, I don't think he's emotionally mature enough to marry her and accept the fact that one day, she is going to die. One day, he'll have to live without her. I don't think Angel is emotionally mature enough (and I'm not sure he would ever be, since he is a vampire) to accept that in his long lifetime, he's going to love people, only to lose them to death, war, famine or disease (okay, I'm overdramatic here, but you get the point). I don't think he could accept losing the one he loves with grace. He's too possessive, I think.

I guess I'm comparing Angel to the witches from His Dark Materials. Probably because I just recently finished The Golden Compass/Northern Lights, so it's still fresh in my mind. The witches were able to handle having serial monogamy, and having lovers that die off in what seems like the blink of an eye (for Witches). The Witches generally accept this with grace, even though their entire lives are filled with heartache. I just...can't see Angel accepting the death(s) of any of his loved ones with dignity and grace, unless he became more in control of his emotions, like the Buddhists. And even then, he wouldn't be our Angel.

02-02-2009, 03:15 PM	#1
Yoda-Mira Wanna live before I die. Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213	Woah... It's been since October of 04 since I've posted on this board! I can't believe it's still up and running and after going through several posts, I see a lot of the original members are still here. That's really awesome. I started losing interest in Angel around the time of that episode in Season 4 where Angel had that hallucination throughout the entire ep (sorry, I can't think of the name of it), but I think I stuck with it through You're Welcome. About a month ago I turned on TNT and it was on! After several years of not watching it, I decided to sit through an episode (Parting Gifts) and my love for the show has been renewed. It brings back such fond memories of the times I had with my C/A buddies online (I know, dork.) and the fan art and such. Anyway, I went over to the IMDB boards and also remembered how absolutely ludicrous this fandom is and how frustrating it can be. When I was around 12 I started watching BtVS and was a die-hard Bangel fan, probably was up until the second season of Angel when I started liking C/A. It's been 8 years since then and I'm now 20 and looking back on all of it has given me some perspective. I've fallen in love since then, done the college try (am still doing it actually), and moved out on my own. I tried re-watching BtVS, but for some reason found it uninteresting (and Buffy, herself, was intolerable!), I felt like it was so campy, whereas the first time around I found so much depth and meaning to the show. I thought Buffy was a great character, but after re-watching the third season I find myself fast forwarding through most of her scenes. It's just an endless cycle of poor me/silly quip and I also found her to be incredibly self-centered at times. The only episode I actually liked her in was The Prom. I really must give credit to SMG for the performance she gave in her bedroom with Willow after her and Angel had broken up. It brings tears to me eyes every time I watch. Anyway, it seems like everyone is always debating who Angel's "true love"/"soul-mate" was. I don't understand why this question is asked repeatedly. I myself, don't believe in the soul-mate theory anyway, so this could be why I have this view. People love different people all the time. People fall in and out of love all the time. When I look back I see Buffy as Angel's first love. First love can completely take you over. Buffy was a teenager for God's sake. Of course, it was a torrid, passionate affair! I think anybody who has ever fallen in love can explain this quite easily. I always see them as Romeo and Juliet. They are so busy fighting, saving the world, and trying to stay in a relationship - that at some point you have to wonder how long that passion would last if they weren't slayer/vampire. But I guess this is most of the thrill that comes with being a Bangel fan. When watching AtS 1-3, Cordelia and Angel are the best of friends that care and would die for each other. It wasn't this romantic notion of "love at first sight". They built a solid foundation, trusted one another, and shared common interests. That to me is my idea of romance. My theory is that, being these are supernatural shows, Bangel are a supernatural romance, and C/A are a more normal marital relationship. Another problem is that a lot of people don't understand that ithey are two separate shows. You'll notice that if Angel is on BtVS, he is in love with Buffy. When Angel is on AtS he is in love with Cordelia (for the better part of the series). People on the IMDB board were saying that Angel was in love with Buffy and only Buffy and that it is made clear in Season 5. Well, I recently saw S5 and I don't understand this theory either. A quote that people use to support this fact is "ours is a forever love". This confuses me even more, because when I watching the show, that entire episode just seemed like a parody of both Bangel and Spuffy's relationships? Am I wrong in thinking this? I thought it was a funny episode and if I would have taken anything in it too seriously I would think it terrible writing. I mean, the cookie line? It was supposed to be funny, right?! I won't get into the assassination of Cordelia's character because even today I find it sad. From what I used to hear it was a lot of backstage politics between Charisma and Joss. I don't think Joss intended to murder Cordelia's character. I think he had a limited time to choose between keeping Charisma's pregnancy underwraps during the entire season or play it on the show. If Charisma hadn't gotten pregnant I think the entire series would have been very different and it's sad that we'll never know. However, I don't think Joss ever much cared for Cordelia's character in the first place and I think it is common knowledge that he is for B/A 100%. It's not as if making Cordelia evil without ripping her character to shreds could've been terribly difficult. One more thing that I wanted to touch on. Fred. I'm not sure if many people are a fan of her, but I NEVER liked her. Way back 6 years ago, I didn't like her and re-watching the series I still don't like her. Don't ask me why. She's just very annoying. Maybe it's fact that at some point in the show, every guy is interested in her? Or that she's a super innocent know-it-all with a Texan accent? Yeah, these things have always bothered me. This obviously never boded well for me, considering Joss treasured her. Now in the middle of Season 5 she died and that saved the season for me. AA was incredible as Illyria and I finally became genuinely interested in Wesley since the end of S3. The dynamic they shared was great to watch on screen and gave the finale some depth. I'm glad they chose to do this. I would have liked to see Cordy's "evil storyline" in Illyria instead of that weird Jasmine thing. Alas, it was not meant to be. ////end rant. I just had to get this out somewhere, just some things I've been thinking about since re-watching the series. Now a couple questions (if you've made it this far!): 1) What episode is it that Buffy walks into the Bronze and sees Angel sitting at the table with Cordelia laughing? 2) Is Cordelia mentioned very much in the Comic Books? If so, any favorite lines or drawings you can tell me about? 3) Can you recommend me your favorite C/A fan fiction? 4) Are there any C/A fansites still in existence? Also, if you disagree with anything I've said let me know! I'd love to hear your opinions! __________________ at the speed that we drove we were bound to wash out... Last edited by Yoda-Mira; 02-02-2009 at 03:28 PM.

02-03-2009, 06:32 PM	#3
[[giggles]] Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 45	On the soul mates front, I kind of agree with you. In fanfiction, I like the idea of Angel making Cordy his mate for life. I love the idea of growing alongside in the same direction at the same speed as someone else. However, my realistic side says that doesn't happen much these days. In this day and age, when we base marriages on love, instead of on procreation and the raising of children, it's not entirely realistic to expect your marriage to last forever. It's a nice dream/thought, and I'd be insanely happy if it were true, but it's sadly not. A lot of the time, people grow in different directions at different speeds. And since we marry for love, some people are no longer willing to stay married, simply because they fell in love with someone else and decided to get married to them. The thing with Angel and Cordy, though, is even though Angel is in love with Cordelia, I don't think he's emotionally mature enough to marry her and accept the fact that one day, she is going to die. One day, he'll have to live without her. I don't think Angel is emotionally mature enough (and I'm not sure he would ever be, since he is a vampire) to accept that in his long lifetime, he's going to love people, only to lose them to death, war, famine or disease (okay, I'm overdramatic here, but you get the point). I don't think he could accept losing the one he loves with grace. He's too possessive, I think. I guess I'm comparing Angel to the witches from His Dark Materials. Probably because I just recently finished The Golden Compass/Northern Lights, so it's still fresh in my mind. The witches were able to handle having serial monogamy, and having lovers that die off in what seems like the blink of an eye (for Witches). The Witches generally accept this with grace, even though their entire lives are filled with heartache. I just...can't see Angel accepting the death(s) of any of his loved ones with dignity and grace, unless he became more in control of his emotions, like the Buddhists. And even then, he wouldn't be our Angel. __________________ Icon made by Livvie.