AtS on TNT Discussion Thread - Page 30

Mr.Brightside · 08-15-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v120176

If I have to choose something that I liked from Connor, it would be Connor season 3 because Greenwalt showed a character with a lot of potential and the Connor from Home. Only that, because in season 5, again they went with the easy way: peachy Connor. And when the spell was broken, he didn't went nuts for all the memories coming back or anything. He was still peachy......

Well, they did that on purpose. Making Connor all peachy in Season 5. Some fans dislike how Connor was so whiny and always against Angel. They just wanted a regular kid, who could talk to Angel without hating him. Which is why I loved seeing Connor is Season 5. The only time we actually seen Connor to talk to Angel without all the hate was when Jasmine appeared. But that was only spell.

TeSjah · 08-15-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I agree Psychofilly, I hated how (Evil) Cordy tried to turn Connor against everyone, I think that was one of the reasons why Connor wanted to kill himself in "Home". He had nothing to lose, now that Cordy left him and Jasmine was dead. That episode was such so sad because Angel couldn't help his son from not killing himself. But, Angel was unselfish and put his son into new Home and Family. One of the reasons why I like Angel so much.

Angel is a self-minded asshole.

But I did like 'Home' and no-one can convince me that it wasn't the apex of 'Angel'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Well, they did that on purpose. Making Connor all peachy in Season 5. Some fans dislike how Connor was so whiny and always against Angel. They just wanted a regular kid, who could talk to Angel without hating him. Which is why I loved seeing Connor is Season 5. The only time we actually seen Connor to talk to Angel without all the hate was when Jasmine appeared. But that was only spell.

Actually, Connor hadn't been under the spell for quite some time. (Although I have no idea how) That's why he betrayed the gang and kept following Jasmine. He thought this lie was better than the others.

Mr.Brightside · 08-15-2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeSjah

Angel is a self-minded asshole.

But I did like 'Home' and no-one can convince me that it wasn't the apex of 'Angel'.

Actually, Connor hadn't been under the spell for quite some time. (Although I have no idea how) That's why he betrayed the gang and kept following Jasmine. He thought this lie was better than the others.

You might think that in other episodes, but he wasn't in "Home".

That's true, but jasmine still had a effect to Connor in someways I can't explain. Like how Angel and Connor were in the sewers talking. They both know, she wanted them.

TeSjah · 08-15-2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

You might think that in other episodes, but he wasn't in "Home".

That's true, but jasmine still had a effect to Connor in someways I can't explain. Like how Angel and Connor were in the sewers talking. They both know, she wanted them.

Oh, I have always thought Angel was a self-minded asshole.

The Jasmine-arc had many flaws, and I'm not even going to try to write them all down, but I guesse if you wanted to believe in Jasmine, you could hear her.

Mr.Brightside · 08-15-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeSjah

Oh, I have always thought Angel was a self-minded asshole.

The Jasmine-arc had many flaws, and I'm not even going to try to write them all down, but I guesse if you wanted to believe in Jasmine, you could hear her.

Oh, alright. Did you think he was in "Home"?

That's possibilty, but Joss never really explain the whole Jasmine-arc. Which I really hate, because there was alot of things I didn't understand.

TeSjah · 08-15-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Oh, alright. Did you think he was in "Home"?

That's possibilty, but Joss never really explain the whole Jasmine-arc. Which I really hate, because there was alot of things I didn't understand.

Always includes 'Home'

But not because he put Connor in a happy family but because

a) He erased Connors memory out of his friends memory. You don't mess with the minds of your friends!
b) He only thought about the luxery benefits of W&H and I felt like he lost the mission in the end (again).
c) He never said a word about Cordelia. While he should have demanded her immediate reviving by his new employees.

califi · 08-15-2005, 03:30 PM

Mind wiping supposed friends/family without their knowledge/permission wasn't entirely altruistic though was it? Personally, the moment Darla walked in pregnant my complusvie need not to miss a single episode started to wane.

The mention earlier of Lindsey staking Darla would have been a brilliant idea, and who knows where that would have taken AtS. *sigh*

I actually like VK, but introducing a baby into the show in the first place was a mistake, never mind bringing him back as a screwed up teen, imo. Following Cordelia's demonization (so much for the 'humanising effect' Doyle spoke of ) then the return of the slug (who I will believe to this day wore an aphrodisiacal aftershave throughout the arc) ...missing episodes just didn't seem such an awful thing me any more.

As I didn't really watch Season four and none of S5, I'll instead read on here what other members made of it.

Thank God for C/A fanfic, lol.

psychofilly · 08-15-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I agree Psychofilly, I hated how (Evil) Cordy tried to turn Connor against everyone, I think that was one of the reasons why Connor wanted to kill himself in "Home". He had nothing to lose, now that Cordy left him and Jasmine was dead.

He still had a lot to loose, he was just so close to the situation and thick headed to see it. He lost his father, but then again, his father hadn't been much of a father to him so I can see where he'd feel hopeless. As a father, Angel was hopeless.

Quote:

That episode was so sad because Angel couldn't help his son from not killing himself. But, Angel was unselfish and put his son into new Home and Family. One of the reasons why I like Angel so much

Hee. This makes me laugh. He couldn't help his son from not killing himself? So, instead of defusing the bomb and dragging Connor off to the nearest psychologist for several lifetimes of therapy, he once again takes the shortcut/quick fix of cutting Connor's throat his own damn self. Hee!

And in the process he mind rapes his friends and imo acts just as evilly as Jasmine did to Cordy by taking away their free will. We see how well those happier memories turned out. Cordy, Fred, and Wes dead, and Gunn bleeding to death in a stinky alleyway, Lorne made into a murderer (Lorne for gods sake!) Lindsey back and then dead. I choose to believe that the utterly boneheaded reason Lindsey came back was a side effect of the spell. Yay for Angel, he saves his son, but at the expense of everyone else. So selfless, that Angel, so noble.

Dannyblue · 08-15-2005, 04:05 PM

I never had a problem with the mindwipe, and I never thought it was an easy way out for Angel. I remember watching "Home", and seriously trying to think of a way out for Connor, but I couldn't. It just seemed like no amount of talking or understanding was gonna help at that point, because I think he'd had a psychotic break by "Home". Either Angel was gonna have to kill him to keep him from hurting other people, or he was gonna be locked up in a rubber room somewhere. And maybe a decade or two of therapy could eventually have helped him. But if those were two of your choices, and someone gave you a third choice where the person you loved would be alive and happy, which one would you take?

I'd take choice number three, even though it involved altering the memories of my friends...which I guess is kind of selfish on some levels, but I still probably would do it.

psychofilly · 08-15-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannyblue

I'd take choice number three, even though it involved altering the memories of my friends...which I guess is kind of selfish on some levels, but I still probably would do it.

I get that. I might too, but the sticking point for me is that it altered other peoples memories. While I saw the point for Connor, because like you said, short of years of threapy, Connor was a danger to himself and everybody. I didn't see why the rest of the gang needed their memories altered. It's not like they wouldn't have understood and I thought it manipulated them unfairly into taking the positions with Wolfram and Hart. They may have taken them on their own, but Wes and Fred at least were iffy about it (which I already found out of character, as much as they had seen, I can't imagine them trusting W&H) and then they just accepted that Angel had signed them all up.

LaLa247 · 08-15-2005, 04:39 PM

I think the mindswipe was always a catch-22. I can understand why Angel did it, and I don't even blame him for it, but I also wouldn't have blamed Wes and Co. for popping a cap in his ass for it. Really, that was his son. Your child always wins over your friends.

And I was one of the handful that loved Connor. I hated the way he was mid-S4, they turned him into such a whiny dumbass, but I just thought the kid definitely had a reason to be so angry and fucked up- he grew up in a hell dimension with a man who attempted to leave him alone on several occasions (Habeus Corpses), then went into this new world with the dad he didn't remember and so on and so forth. I don't blame him.

BUT, I do think Vinnie was trying to turn Connor into what the *writers* should've- a feral, confused, angry "man-child"...not the whiny, Dawn-lite teenager that they did. They had a chance to turn Connor into a deep, emotional, fascinating character, and produce a great storyline for it, but they ruined it. It was frustrating, for both the audience and probably Vinnie, in my opinion. Vinnie deserved a medal for putting up with ignorance the writers put forth, and even if you hated Connor, you have to admit that Vinnie put his all into it. It was just a shame they wasted probably the most talented actor they had on either show.

ETA: Watching "Home" just now, Vinnie really gave everything he had into that role. And he and Boreanaz had chemistry, dammit. Grr.

ETA2: Amy Acker for Claire in The Time Traveler's Wife movie! Adrien Brody and AA all the way.

QueenC4707 · 08-15-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by califi

Mind wiping supposed friends/family without their knowledge/permission wasn't entirely altruistic though was it? Personally, the moment Darla walked in pregnant my complusvie need not to miss a single episode started to wane.

The mention earlier of Lindsey staking Darla would have been a brilliant idea, and who knows where that would have taken AtS. *sigh*

I actually like VK, but introducing a baby into the show in the first place was a mistake, never mind bringing him back as a screwed up teen, imo. Following Cordelia's demonization (so much for the 'humanising effect' Doyle spoke of ) then the return of the slug (who I will believe to this day wore an aphrodisiacal aftershave throughout the arc) ...missing episodes just didn't seem such an awful thing me any more.

As I didn't really watch Season four and none of S5, I'll instead read on here what other members made of it.

Thank God for C/A fanfic, lol.

I totally agree with that post, califi. I felt exactly the same way going into S3 (which I watched on DVD during a massive Angel-athon). I watched the S2 DVD complusively, but as soon as Darla staked herself I found it easy to put away the DVD. S4 I watched as it aired, and to this day I cannot bring myself to rewatch it, except for the Faith eps, and only b/c I have much Faith love. And I am still convinced they borrowed some Dawson's Creek writers to ghostwrite the entire arc following the return of the slug.

I did enjoy S5, but it also the first Angel season I watched in its entirety (I mostly only started watching AtS b/c I was a huge BtVS fan) so I probably would've had different opinions if I'd watched from the start. Now that I caught up, I see S5 a little differently, and I think it's much easier to enjoy if you are a BtVS fan who never really watched Angel before. I can certainly see why you guys have the opinion of it that you do.

Quote:

BUT, I do think Vinnie was trying to turn Connor into what the *writers* should've- a feral, confused, angry "man-child"...not the whiny, Dawn-lite teenager that they did. They had a chance to turn Connor into a deep, emotional, fascinating character, and produce a great storyline for it, but they ruined it.

This is a good point. While my enjoyment of the show dropped dramatically once they introduced Connor, if they'd done something better with him, I might've warmed up to the idea eventually.

brownsbros3 · 08-15-2005, 10:10 PM

Connor was a character that had potential, but they made him too wishy-washy. They could never go one way or the other with him. One week he was completely hating Angel. The next week it would seem like he's starting to figure out that Angel is not the bad guy. They drug the storyline on way too long, and Connor suffered from it. Season 3 they built up this big storyline between Connor-Holtz-Angel-Sahjhan, but then there was no payoff to it. The Connor-Cordelia was by far the worst thing they ever did storyline wise. I loved the Connor that appeared in Origin and Not Fade Away. Had they gone with that version of the character sooner, I think the character would have gone over better with the audience.

Mr.Brightside · 08-16-2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

He still had a lot to loose, he was just so close to the situation and thick headed to see it. He lost his father, but then again, his father hadn't been much of a father to him so I can see where he'd feel hopeless. As a father, Angel was hopeless.

Well, Angel was trying to be a good father. Connor just wouldn't give him a chance to. He would do something so stupid, like sleeping with Cordelia. I know, who wouldn't?

But that was Connor being selfish and thinking about himself and not his father in that situation.

psychofilly · 08-16-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Well, Angel was trying to be a good father. Connor just wouldn't give him a chance to. He would do something so stupid, like sleeping with Cordelia. I know, who wouldn't?

But that was Connor being selfish and thinking about himself and not his father in that situation.

Well, Connor did have an evil hellgod manipulating him into that position. (After Spin the Bottle, and possibly even sooner according to Sam I Am

that wasn't Cordy) He was also not old or experienced enough to give any real kind of informed consent. He was only sixteen and had only been on earth a few months under already strained circumstances.

08-15-2005, 03:30 PM	#442
califi Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Total PissedOff Land -first right. Posts: 1,930	Mind wiping supposed friends/family without their knowledge/permission wasn't entirely altruistic though was it? Personally, the moment Darla walked in pregnant my complusvie need not to miss a single episode started to wane. The mention earlier of Lindsey staking Darla would have been a brilliant idea, and who knows where that would have taken AtS. sigh I actually like VK, but introducing a baby into the show in the first place was a mistake, never mind bringing him back as a screwed up teen, imo. Following Cordelia's demonization (so much for the 'humanising effect' Doyle spoke of ) then the return of the slug (who I will believe to this day wore an aphrodisiacal aftershave throughout the arc) ...missing episodes just didn't seem such an awful thing me any more. As I didn't really watch Season four and none of S5, I'll instead read on here what other members made of it. Thank God for C/A fanfic, lol. __________________ "Oh, Cordeeeeelia, how I feeeeel ya!" GoTeam C/A Last edited by califi; 08-15-2005 at 03:33 PM.

08-15-2005, 04:05 PM	#444
Dannyblue a.k.a. Danielle Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,147	I never had a problem with the mindwipe, and I never thought it was an easy way out for Angel. I remember watching "Home", and seriously trying to think of a way out for Connor, but I couldn't. It just seemed like no amount of talking or understanding was gonna help at that point, because I think he'd had a psychotic break by "Home". Either Angel was gonna have to kill him to keep him from hurting other people, or he was gonna be locked up in a rubber room somewhere. And maybe a decade or two of therapy could eventually have helped him. But if those were two of your choices, and someone gave you a third choice where the person you loved would be alive and happy, which one would you take? I'd take choice number three, even though it involved altering the memories of my friends...which I guess is kind of selfish on some levels, but I still probably would do it. __________________ IMAGIC. My LiveJournal, where you'll find my fanfiction, fanart, etc.

08-15-2005, 04:39 PM	#446
LaLa247 Wooo! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Here, there, and everywhere... Posts: 9,668	I think the mindswipe was always a catch-22. I can understand why Angel did it, and I don't even blame him for it, but I also wouldn't have blamed Wes and Co. for popping a cap in his ass for it. Really, that was his son. Your child always wins over your friends. And I was one of the handful that loved Connor. I hated the way he was mid-S4, they turned him into such a whiny dumbass, but I just thought the kid definitely had a reason to be so angry and fucked up- he grew up in a hell dimension with a man who attempted to leave him alone on several occasions (Habeus Corpses), then went into this new world with the dad he didn't remember and so on and so forth. I don't blame him. BUT, I do think Vinnie was trying to turn Connor into what the writers should've- a feral, confused, angry "man-child"...not the whiny, Dawn-lite teenager that they did. They had a chance to turn Connor into a deep, emotional, fascinating character, and produce a great storyline for it, but they ruined it. It was frustrating, for both the audience and probably Vinnie, in my opinion. Vinnie deserved a medal for putting up with ignorance the writers put forth, and even if you hated Connor, you have to admit that Vinnie put his all into it. It was just a shame they wasted probably the most talented actor they had on either show. ETA: Watching "Home" just now, Vinnie really gave everything he had into that role. And he and Boreanaz had chemistry, dammit. Grr. ETA2: Amy Acker for Claire in The Time Traveler's Wife movie! Adrien Brody and AA all the way. __________________ Charisma's Bitch #1 "Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot." -- Lucy Lawless President Bush DID have a sure fire plan to end the war in Iraq, However Chuck Norris was busy that day. Last edited by LaLa247; 08-15-2005 at 05:08 PM.

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08-15-2005, 10:10 PM	#448
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	Connor was a character that had potential, but they made him too wishy-washy. They could never go one way or the other with him. One week he was completely hating Angel. The next week it would seem like he's starting to figure out that Angel is not the bad guy. They drug the storyline on way too long, and Connor suffered from it. Season 3 they built up this big storyline between Connor-Holtz-Angel-Sahjhan, but then there was no payoff to it. The Connor-Cordelia was by far the worst thing they ever did storyline wise. I loved the Connor that appeared in Origin and Not Fade Away. Had they gone with that version of the character sooner, I think the character would have gone over better with the audience.