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Old 09-30-2003, 09:53 AM   #16
LaLa247
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I love Kar.

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It's a look that will be around for most of season 1, and I love it. If you ask me, trying to "get" Cordelia is part of what humanized Angel.
I miss the confused look...it was there for three years. Ugh.

This is really OT, but while watching "Heartthrob", I loved how when everyone left after Angel told his story, he turns to Cordy with "James really lived for that girl" and she replies with a simple, quiet "Yeah". It was a nice moment between the two, something that went all the way back to season one. I miss that.
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:04 PM   #17
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You know, re-watching Lonely Hearts today really got me thinking. Did anyone else actually like Kate Lockley? Because I was pretty indifferent to her the first time around, but now that I've been thinking about it and re-watching the show, I actually like her a lot. She was a very adult character, and it really helped distinguish the show from the high schoolyness of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Even though we got some pretty good closure for her character, I think it'd be really cool to see her come back for an episode or two in the fifth season.
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:14 PM   #18
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I always liked Kate. I wasn't online at the time, so had no idea how much heat the character (and the actress) took. I saw Kate as a good possible love-interest for Angel, which is where they were obviously going. Somehow, it just never clicked. It seemed like, the more they got to know each other, the less likely a romance between them seemed to be. If that even makes sense.

You know what I think the main problem was? They were too much alike. Neither one brought anything new to the equation. She was serious, he was broody, both were reserved. Put them together and you get two serious, broody, reserved people.

Anyway, I liked ER. She's a beautiful woman, and Kate's a take-charge kinda gal. So, yeah, I cool with Kate when she first appeared on AtS.
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:32 PM   #19
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I liked Kate until she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing way too far.

Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*

I miss Doyle.
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by LaLa247
Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*
He also smiled when she was talking about his not being able to have sex or risk going evil and killing everybody. It's like he wasn't smiling at what she said. It was more, "I can't believe she said that! Doesn't she know people are supposed to tip-toe around the fact that I was once evil and homocidal. That they're supposed to deny that Angelus and I are one and the same. But, no, she just talks about it...like she accepts that part of me or something. Hey, she brought up my dark past! I should be all broody and guilt-ridden by now, unable to meet her eyes because of the shame. Why am I smiling at her? But I can't help it. The way she said it, I just can't find the brood within."

Sorry. I went to another place there.

Anyway, he smiled at (or for) Cordy a lot in LH.
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Old 09-30-2003, 06:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by LaLa247
I liked Kate until she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing way too far.

Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*

I miss Doyle.
LaLa girl same with me. Liked Kate at first but then she find out he was a Vampire and she turn into a compelet bitch to him after all the time he safe her ass.
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dannyblue
I just love that confused look Angel gets on his face when he's dealing with Cordelia in "City Of". It's a look that will be around for most of season 1, and I love it. If you ask me, trying to "get" Cordelia is part of what humanized Angel. So often, the other people in his life were happy to let him brood and be stand-offish. But not Cordy. Working with Cordy every day, he almost had to open up and loosen up.
You know I was just re-reading a story yesterday that I hadn't read in a while called Cute Little Flaws by Jackson that to me really captures S1 Cordy and Angel and what you just described. The story also kinda reminded me of the scene where Cordy tells him he can't fire her because she's Vision Girl and sticks her tongue out at him and despite himself he can't help but smile. If you like that story you can find more stories by Jackson over at Nothing To Hide.


I can't believe how excited I am about being able to see AtS everyday on the air even though I have the DVD's and can watch them anytime I want. The only thing I'm not liking is where they're putting the commercial breaks. They're not putting them in the usual places and so some of the scene changes seem kind of abrupt. There's something I noticed during "City Of" when Cordy is at Russell Winters house and they start shooting and Angel picks her up and jumps over the bannister. I don't think I've ever seen anybody else bring it up and I'm wondering if I'm just seeing things. Has anybody else noticed that Cordy's shoes change during that scene? When Angel first picks her up in his arms she has on one pair of sandals but when he turns around to jump over the bannister it's a totally different pair. I know it's really trivial but could someone else check out that scene and let me know what they see.

And I still can't understand how Angel and Doyle didn't know it was an angel on the business cards. Why the hell would they think she'd put a bird or a butterfly on the card? It looked like an angel to me. I love watching the scene in the club where she's handing out the cards and she says that one line to the guy about his lazy eye.

As for the Kate situation I'm kinda between Canadia and LaLa. I was pretty indifferent to her until as LaLa put it she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing to the extreme.
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelia
I can't believe how excited I am about being able to see AtS everyday on the air even though I have the DVD's and can watch them anytime I want.
Well, I haven't seen most of these episodes since they aired 4 years ago. I only have 5 eps on tape, including "City Of". Watching "Lonely Hearts" was like watching an episode I'd never seen, because I barely remembered it.

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Originally posted by Angelia
And I still can't understand how Angel and Doyle didn't know it was an angel on the business cards. Why the hell would they think she'd put a bird or a butterfly on the card?
It was just an excuse to get a laugh at Cordy's expense. And, okay, I did get a laugh...at Angel's and Doyle's expense. I've always thought it was a very cool abstract drawing of an angel. And considering she drew the picture to put on business cards for a guy named Angel...Come on, guys, it shouldn't have been that hard for you to make the leap.
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:41 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Dannyblue
You know what I think the main problem was? They were too much alike. Neither one brought anything new to the equation. She was serious, he was broody, both were reserved. Put them together and you get two serious, broody, reserved people.
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.

I don't like ER as an actress myself, she's pretty much done horribly in every role I've seen her in to the point that she's the critics' favorite joke. I wish they'd have gotten someone better like Charlotte Ross. I loved her in "Beggers and Choosers" at the time and thought she'd have made a great empathetic Kate.
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:44 PM   #25
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i have come to the conclusion that you won't find anyone better at puting subtext on the screen than CC. DB is excellent, but i think he took lessons from her. she is just so believable
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:48 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.
While I really like Elisabeth Rohm as an actress that about sums up her character Kate perfectly. Guess all those similiarities to Buffy made me hate her the second I saw her first.

I think they might have been able to make Kate a little more likeable if they hadn't went for the whole "All vampires are evil" mindset of hers.

*sighs* Reading this thread makes me realize how much I'd like to have the old AtS eps on on a daily basis, too. Guess I should start watching at least an episode a night again.
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Old 09-30-2003, 07:52 PM   #27
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Re: Kate

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Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.

I don't like ER as an actress myself, she's pretty much done horribly in every role I've seen her in to the point that she's the critics' favorite joke. I wish they'd have gotten someone better like Charlotte Ross. I loved her in "Beggers and Choosers" at the time and thought she'd have made a great empathetic Kate.
Wordy word word word...

I never did like Kate for all of the above reasons, and doubt I'll start liking her now.

And a big fat "me too" on your opinion's of ER's acting skills. ER = Tree = Wood.
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Old 09-30-2003, 10:13 PM   #28
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I think Kar hit the nail on the head for me. She was too much like Buffy. Rather, they were trying to make her like Buffy, and it was kinda obvious. Didn't like it.

The lazy eye thing also had me rolling, but not as much as Doyle's "You're disgusting" to Cordy. It was just one of those lines that had to be delivered perfectly for it to work, and Glenn Quinn did it. He said it so simple and without a comical tone, it was very dry. He was a great foil for Charisma, who was Boreanaz's foil. It really worked.

Quote:
Originally posted by tojoson
i have come to the conclusion that you won't find anyone better at puting subtext on the screen than CC. DB is excellent, but i think he took lessons from her. she is just so believable
Y'know, I think Charisma can have chemistry with a rock- she's that good. But when regarding subtext, I think Boreanaz took it and ran with it. He did things that weren't in the script, like the smiling all throughout LH. We know by this ep, the second one, that Angel was kind of taken by Cordy.

Boreanaz really pushed the subtext, and I give him credit for that. And it makes me wonder, especially during LH, how much of the smiling was Boreanaz just "entranced" with Charisma, or him acting; and vice versa with Charisma. They really look like they got along, and it shows on screen.

Sorry, I rambled.

I also loved how it was obvious Charisma and Boreanaz fed off each other in scenes. Wonderful chemistry.
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Old 10-01-2003, 12:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.
Okay, get ready to pounce. I liked Kate at first because she was so much like Buffy.

Take a deep breath and let me explain.

At the time, I was still a mild B/Aer. And, like Kar said, I thought of her as "Buffy in 10 or 15 years." The similarities, especially in later episodes, are so striking. And, well, if Angel had to be with anybody, I figured that, if he picked someone that much like Buffy, it would mean he only really still loved Buffy, and Kate was just a substitute. So, she was a good stand-in as far as I was considered. A place-holder until Angel and Buffy could get back together.

I know, I know. But that's where my head was when the series started. By about mid-season, all of my B/A-ness had faded. The C/A thing was already working it's magic...although I remained in denial until season two.

I just noticed something watching "Lonely Hearts" that made me think. It's the last scene between Angel and Kate. There are ambulances, police, and paramedics everywhere. As Angel walks away, Kate watches wistfully as he disappears into the night.

Remind anyone of another scene? Say, the one in at the end of "Graduation". The Sunnydale High parking lot is filled with ambulances, police, paramedics, etc. As Angel walks away, preparing to leave Sunnydale, Buffy watches wistfully as he disappears into the night.

Makes you wonder.
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Old 10-01-2003, 04:23 AM   #30
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I think Kate was a missed opportunity and an obvious underdog as just about everyone hated her before she was even on.

Which doesn't have to be the final factor. I hated Riley at first too but the character and Marc Blucas won me over to the point that I still say he's probably the most suitable guy she's dated.



Surprised how much I enjoyed Lonely Hearts. This is a great episode for DB. I love how he just plays the straight man, does deadpan to the nth degree and is at his bumbling best. Also he works his eyebrows and eyes like a pro. Totally blew me away after his non-acting on BtVS where he just kind of stood there and looked sad for Buffy. Really had me laughing with his little nonverbal responses.

Like when Doyle asked that he not say anything about his being demon, that sarcastic expression was priceless. And that closing scene where he says ďGod yes thank youĒ when Doyle suggests he can sit in the dark and brood? First time I saw that I knew DB could really carry the show.

I also love the brooding in the dark Angel. Really kind of crystalizes the character during that season. That and him walking with his hands in the pocket of that large black trench coat. Not the swagger of the leather but more the PI.

They had all these little details and touches that first season. Like the two or three lonely people sitting alone at tables. Canít recall any subtle details or pointed touches like that at the Bronze. Everything had to be obvious to register in that setting.

I am disappointed that they cut out the implication that the guy thought Angel was hitting on him. They kept the wrong car scene from the pilot but couldnít use one more Angel couldnít be less of a player joke?

Is it me or did Glenn Quinn really hack off wardrobe that week? Usually they have at least a decent combination of loud shirt and naugahyde jacket but good grief, they found the most fugly comboís for that one. One usually brought out his eyes but both just washed him out. Apparently hacked off hair and make up too judging by what looks like hat hair by the end.

I remember this as the intro for ER. I know a lot of folks liked her but I canít imagine her as some coked out cop and pulling it off that was originally described. She really struggled in this one, like the bar scenes where her emotions/expressions had to be very obvious. I guess she just struck me as a very superficial in terms of portraying emotions. Contrasted to Justine who really had that behind her eyes maelstrom going on.

Plus, her delivery is just so flat and monotone. Her monologue in the apartment when she finds Angel was just so bad. Not crisp or lively while sheís throwing off cop-like comments and matter of fact flat when she needed to be ingratiating and soothing while she talked about his frustration.

Top it off with her obvious stunt double and it wasnít her best show. She wasnít strong in her physical performance so when they have the blatant cut aways, it didnít flow for me.

Watching it this time I couldnít help but wonder how the heck she found Angelís apartment. Itís not like heís got a last name she could index. Nor did she have a business card judging by the last scene where she couldnít figure out the angel on the front.

And for Peteís sake, Angelís walking home with the sun up and roaming around Cordeliaís sunlight apartment.

And I know Iím venting but this is the episode that started the trend of not letting Charisma wear a real shirt with real support. Gimme a break.

Not that Charisma let it stop her. I loved her little sales pitch at the club. Throwing off innocent but unbelievably blunt comments like the lazy eye. Ratching up for a throw down when the jerk called her a hooker? Great. What else would you expect from *an ACTRESS*.


I didnít remember a lot of this. Like that weird little twist of Angelís head when Doyle talked about the three of them going out. Not sure he every endorsed C/D but he just blew the whole thing off whenever Doyle made his intentions known.

I love his failed but almost agonized attempt to get caught up in the business cards. The sudden enthusiasm and appreciation of her getting the cards. That weird little twisting while he was trying to make out the figure. Loved how she gets him squirming over nothing by the second episode.

This scene also has Angel and Cordelia looking at each other off screen a lot. Like when Doyleís hit by the visions, Angel keeps looking at her. For reassurance from her or to reassure himself that sheís ok, Iím not sure. Strange seeing Doyle with the visions. I noticed that Angel didnít really cuddle or sooth him during the mind numbing flailing. Even after it, heís looking to her while talking.

I donít really remember this much unspoken dynamic between them either. For some reason I thought it was pretty much Doyle/Angel back then but Angel seemed to include her more as a partner than Doyle. The shorter man seemed more of the scheming, scooping in approaching her than Angel.

Like when they walk down the stairs at the club. Cordelia/Angel in front with Doyle following behind like an afterthought. For some reason I thought they had her sitting at home or in the office more often than not doing her nails but thatís probably due to too much bad fanfic.

I wonder why she only handed Angel the cards, not Doyle. Kind of weird like heís not even there. I noticed that Angel didnít even question it but dutifully took the cards.

Which was a good thing. When heís at a loss of words he looked down and aped her slogan on the cards. Reminds me of when she ghost-wrote his apology to Merle. And frankly that conversation needed it. I know it was supposed to be intentionally fumbling and awkward but boy, it was for more than plot reasons.

Reminded me of the Lilah/Angel meeting later on when you immediately got a sense of attraction and a large dose of tension.

Later on itís really obvious how C/Aíve already got their interdynamics down when she immediately looks for Angel when the brawl starts. How sheís watching him and whimpering ďAngelĒ while Doyleís the one getting hurt.

Then he talks to Cordelia, not Doyle while theyíre commiserating at the table later. Talks about Doyle in the third person even though heís sitting there. The masks are already starting to fall while they talk about loneliness and their lack of social activity.

I love that little smirk and light in her eyes while heís pouring out his heart about his days as Liam. You know sheís imagining him hitting the taverns and wenches. Not just the usual blank look someone else wouldíve done.

Not to mention her attempt to be sympathetic to him. That little monologue where she tries to empathize with him. That alone was not something you expect from Queen C. But I love his reaction ranging from defensive to almost laughing at her bluntness. He sounds gruff when he asks her why but by the end heís smiling at her and some of it is genuine. That wry little comment on how he appreciates her viewpoint. But on her side it really is genuine.

I love how heís left sputtering with Doyle while sheís twirling off, literally. And really, does anyone believe her concern was purely vocational about having a homicidal maniac for a boss?

Another thing that was pretty common thru this was his patience with her. Heís still working on basic social skills and sheís really pushing him with her lack of computer skills and mishearing things. By season 2 he doesnít even break stride but now heís making a concerted effort to be calm. Like the borrower/donky comment.

For instance when sheís searching for the news. Number one, theyíre doing it in the office, not breaking into the library. Iím sure that was her initiative to get a computer and internet. But I love that little look they exchange when Doyle finds the two bodies in the news. How theyíre confirming their opinions with each other. Then she notices him starting to leave and wants to know where heís going.

There were a couple of high school references again like the pilot. Like when the possessed girl was talking about dating is now by a different set of reference points (that donít include Buffy). Also, when Cordelia talked about dating in Sunnydale was partly cuz they were all monster food. Little shared history between them as he WAS the monster hunting him and he reacts with his knuckles on the table. Iím sure thatís always somewhere on his mind at this point.

I love how she knows who ďmeĒ is when he shows up at her apartment. Her immediate response to his less than obvious bruises. Even the cut on his forehead was gone by then. That little pause and firm voice when she asks if heíll be good wasnít really a kidding tone. I suspect memories of Angelus are always in her mind at this point too. Itís an obstacle for their friendship but itís not stopping it.

I love how her apartment cuts into his tight focus over the demon. Brings him up short. I thought it was laughter in his eyes the first time but it looks more like disbelief in that expression.

Sheís also more affected his comments than Doyleís. She pretty much blew him off but with Angel she went into the maid babbling, she couldnít even meet his eyes. And he knows it by the way he drops his head.

I firmly believe that they had Cordelia paired with Doyle up front but her obvious reactions to his touch and any claims by him like in the club were pretty aggressive. Not the adversarial tension like with Xander but almost disgust.

Kind of like Angelís reaction when he came back to the apartment and found them sleeping on the couch. I donít know if he was just hacked off that the door was unlocked or that they were defensive less. However itís certainly not an endorsement of them.

Love the little scene where sheís concerned about him calling Kate and going back to the club. Heís been spotted and sheís worried. I love that comment about being lonely and what lonely people do. He keeps her eyes while he says it with all his vulnerabilities and personal loneliness out there. She drops her eyes realizing how much of that is her as well.

I really love how both DB and CC have these genuine, warm little smiles/expressions. Like in the end where Angelís pushing himself to invite the others out. Funny how he keeps looking at Cordelia but hey, canít quite keep her eyes so he ends looking at Doyle. Look at him when he talks about going out for fun.

But I love her knowing, warm smile thatís almost sultry cuz she knows how hard heís trying not to be him.
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