Predictions coming true!

[jean-vic]

Myself, and many others, have long been predicting the fall of Angel from main vampire status alongside Buffy and have predicted the rise of Spike to top dog. Perhaps the shambolic Spike victory in Destiny was a precursor to what was coming. Spike has become top dog.

Angel: After the Fall was the story of what happened to ANGEL and his SIDEKICKS after they took down the Circle of the Black Thorn. It is, in a sense, Season 6 and by Joss' own word (for whatever that's worth) very canonical. However, IDW has just made the announcement that in June-July, a new series will be coming out. Spike: After the Fall.

There we have it. At first, Buffy was the main character with her sidekicks. Then Joss, seeing the potential of Angel's character, made him joint lead with the Buffster. And now, after years of fans pandering to Spike, and many many ratings resting on his mere appearance, the blonded one has become third main character. Of course, they'll throw the old "Angel's story hasn't finished" line into the mix, but in that case, why can't Spike remain his sidekick? There are characters who got crappy ends, crappy tenures and even worse reviews by fans. (This is a site dedictaed to one of them) but do they get spinoffs? No. Do they get countless allowances made for them? No. Spike however, has gone from Angel's sidekick to front man in mere years. That added to the reveal that Angel has shanshued really gives me the feeling that Angel's days are numbered and we are entering the dark age of Spike.

I don't blame Spike. He is what he is. I still like him. Shame his character is tainted, IMO, by the fans who are't happy unless he's there, unless he's most important. Howver much I like Spike, I really do wish they would killed him off when first planned, or left him dead after Chosen. As much as I love these characters and series, Joss is, again, ruining it.

LONG LIVE KING SPIKE!

[bigbird811]

Well, Joss seems to be hellbent on destroying his own reputation...

I really do wish they would killed him off when first planned, or left him dead after Chosen.

You do realize Spike was one of the main reasons BTVS was able to sustain itself beyond its third season? And that a good portion of the people sitting in front of the TV watching Angel season five were Spike fans?

Dude, give credit where it's due. Spike was just as much of an important character as Angel. Without him, Buffy wouldn't have been the same to a lot of people.

[LordKain]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Well, Joss seems to be hellbent on destroying his own reputation...



You do realize Spike was one of the main reasons BTVS was able to sustain itself beyond its third season? And that a good portion of the people sitting in front of the TV watching Angel season five were Spike fans?

Dude, give credit where it's due. Spike was just as much of an important character as Angel. Without him, Buffy wouldn't have been the same to a lot of people.

There was a reason for that because after High School Joss and Marti didn't know what to do with the Scooby gang so they turned 2 of them into losers Gilies and Xander, 1 into a lazy full blown lesbian Willow and the other into an arrogant self-important, selfish bitch Buffy.

Who were the fans supposed to support on the show after that.

With Angel and Cordy long gong.

As for Angel well lets just say that this is what happens when a bunch of marks (fans) put to much faith in a jackass like Joss he simply won't deliever for you or for them and he never did quite frankly and I also feel he's one of the biggest overrated writters in Hollywood.

The actors on both shows are the ones that made the shows work not the writters.

Bottom line is put your faith in Joss and these comics you'll be made to look like a fool hell look at what he's already done with the Buffy comics for godsake Buffy sleeping with a fellow slayer gee thats good writting.

Besides we all should of seen this coming the man always did play favorites ie: Willow, Fred/Illyria, Faith, Andrew, SPIKE and even Wesley to while the others got screwed.

[bigbird811]

Damn my headache...

And where exactly did Xander and Giles turn into losers? Or Willow being a lesbian become a bad, bad horrible thing? (Y'know, Tara/Willow shippers do exist)

And that 'selfish bitch Buffy' still managed to keep the devotion of her fans.

As for AtS, I've already said it: Season four, people. The worst season of any television show ever made. And the refusal to deal with it's consequences in what followed.

and

The actors on both shows are the ones that made the shows work not the writters.

What were we watching then, man? Heavy adlibs? Writing, acting and direction matter equally.

[LordKain]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Damn my headache...

And where exactly did Xander and Giles turn into losers? Or Willow being a lesbian become a bad, bad horrible thing? (Y'know, Tara/Willow shippers do exist)

And that 'selfish bitch Buffy' still managed to keep the devotion of her fans.

As for AtS, I've already said it: Season four, people. The worst season of any television show ever made. And the refusal to deal with it's consequences in what followed.

and


What were we watching then, man? Heavy adlibs? Writing, acting and direction matter equally.

Xander never left his parents basement in Season 4 and only hooked up with Anya because they both enjoyed the sex thats it in Season 5 he was Riley's little cheerleader. Season 6 he left Anya at the alta, saved the world in a GOD AWFUL episode and in Season 7 lost an eye apart from that I don't exactly remember him doing anything worth while do you?

Giles in Season 4 was a drunk with a floozie on the side in Season 4 in Seasons 5, 6 and 7 he didn't exactly do much now did he.

No wonder Tony didn't want to be a regular anymore after Season 5 because like Nick Joss and Marti both gave the actors themselves absolutely nothing to work with.

I have nothing against Willow becoming a lesbian I just wish it was written better then it was considering that she had a crush on Xander since junior school and was with Oz for like 2 years they should of made her bi sexual instead it would of made a hell of alot more sense.

Actually Buffy herself didn't keep alot of fans intrested in her character alot of fans grew tired of her and her arrogance I don't know why they made her so unlikeable especially in the later seasons I really don't.

Only a couple of characters actually got pushed to do anything worthwhile was Spike, Willow and the worst character ever in my eyes Andrew in the last 2 seasons but thats it.

Honestly bigbird811 Angel was never the same for me ever since Darla walked through the Hyperion hotel door with a bun in her oven I found the show to be pretty embarrassing to watch after that but thats just me and my own opinion on it.

[tootyfnfruity]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Damn my headache...

And where exactly did Xander and Giles turn into losers? Or Willow being a lesbian become a bad, bad horrible thing? (Y'know, Tara/Willow shippers do exist)

And that 'selfish bitch Buffy' still managed to keep the devotion of her fans.

As for AtS, I've already said it: Season four, people. The worst season of any television show ever made. And the refusal to deal with it's consequences in what followed.

and


What were we watching then, man? Heavy adlibs? Writing, acting and direction matter equally.

I agree s4 was bad but i have to say that imo s5 of ats was the absolute worst season with only one good episode that ended horribly ...cordy's death, if there was one bright spot in all of season 5 it was Spike, unfortunately he wasn't enough to detract from the rest of the miserable season.

[bigbird811]

LK, this isn't anything you haven't discussed with a lot of people. And honestly, I'm tired of answering things obsessing with a fictional universe about fictional characters. I've already said enough in the 'Why?' thread.

It's a television show. It's never going to be just one thing. Everyone is going to have different opinions, and because it's not reality, there is no definite truth aside from cannon.

Plus, my head feels like it's breaking in two, so I can't think about anything right now, much less the Buffyverse.

I agree s4 was bad but i have to say that imo s5 of ats was the absolute worst season with only one good episode that ended horribly ...cordy's death, if there was one bright spot in all of season 5 it was Spike, unfortunately he wasn't enough to detract from the rest of the miserable season.

But at least season five was understandable. Four was more like a mishmash of bad scripts.

[LordKain]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

LK, this isn't anything you haven't discussed with a lot of people. And honestly, I'm tired of answering things obsessing with a fictional universe about fictional characters. I've already said enough in the 'Why?' thread.

It's a television show. It's never going to be just one thing. Everyone is going to have different opinions, and because it's not reality, there is no definite truth aside from cannon.

Plus, my head feels like it's breaking in two, so I can't think about anything right now, much less the Buffyverse.



But at least season five was understandable. Four was more like a mishmash of bad scripts.

I know that but I honestly never got the whole Spike craze I mean yeah he was a decent character in small doses.

How was Season 5 understandable?

It was an even bigger mess then Season 4. At least in season 4 up until that god awful Jasmine plot the characters still had some of the qualities you orginally liked about the show in Season 5 they were all re-written and I thought that sucked.

[Angela]

So....you guys are saying you actually watched season 5?

Huh.

[bigbird811]

I was just saying I got the storylines more clearly than in s4, no matter how bad they were...

So....you guys are saying you actually watched season 5?

Huh.

[whine] Hey, I did!

[jean-vic]

I am partially in agreement with LK. Season 5 was much worse than 4. When you watch 4 again knowing why things happened it isn't as bad. IN 5 though the characters were unrecognisable, except in YW.

I also don't understand the Spike craze. He was good but not as good as others. He was not as good as Angel, Wes or Cordy for story or development. And imo he wasn't that funny. And bigbird i don't have to give him credit. He didn't save Buffy. The fans watching him did. If not for those fans, BTVS would have died after Angel and cordy left. Unlike btvs, ats didn't need him.

I do think he is unfairly favoured however and this new series worries me. Is Joss planning to make Spike the new Main man?

[Morrigan]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

IN 5 though the characters were unrecognisable, except in YW.

I probably shouldn't even comment in this thread as I never watched S5, including YW. However this struck me as interesting, I was channel surfing the other morning and turned on TNT, I watched 5 minutes of a show and honestly had no clue what it was. I think it was the episode where Fred died, I watched this woman I didn't recognize by look or voice (did she lose her accent in S5?) talk about living in a cav for 5 years and how a super virus wouldn't kill her. I honestly had no clue it was ATS, it was quite shocking to realize that Fred and Wesley were on the TV in front of me.

Just thought I'd share..I freely admit I turned the channel as soon as I realized it was ATS S5.

[Luna]

I think in "You´re Welcome" when Cordy was there, the characters were almost how they once had been. That shows how much they would have needed her.

[bigbird811]

Originally Posted by jean-vic

I am partially in agreement with LK. Season 5 was much worse than 4. When you watch 4 again knowing why things happened it isn't as bad. IN 5 though the characters were unrecognisable, except in YW.

Y'know what, forget what I said about s5. I worded it badly. Stuffy nose and migranes...eh...

I also don't understand the Spike craze. He was good but not as good as others. He was not as good as Angel, Wes or Cordy for story or development. And imo he wasn't that funny. And bigbird i don't have to give him credit. He didn't save Buffy. The fans watching him did. If not for those fans, BTVS would have died after Angel and cordy left. Unlike btvs, ats didn't need him.

Exactly. The fans watching him liked him, and therefore kept watching him and the show. There are a lot of people that don't find him useful, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a huge fanbase and that he added something to BtVS. (Joss Whedon said in an s4 interview that Spike was meant to replace the snark Cordelia took with her to the spinoff)

I've never said AtS needed Spike. I said I watched it because of Spike and that there were fans of his who watched s5. But the low ratings proved not all wanted to see him in that show.

And now I have a headache again. Damn you online fandom.

[jean-vic]

Originally Posted by bigbird811

Exactly. The fans watching him liked him, and therefore kept watching him and the show. There are a lot of people that don't find him useful, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a huge fanbase and that he added something to BtVS. (Joss Whedon said in an s4 interview that Spike was meant to replace the snark Cordelia took with her to the spinoff)

I've never said AtS needed Spike. I said I watched it because of Spike and that there were fans of his who watched s5. But the low ratings proved not all wanted to see him in that show.

And now I have a headache again. Damn you online fandom.

But that's exactly it. Why do so many fans like him? I don't understand what it is about him that attracts so many fans. As I said, he certainly wasn't the most interesting, funny, developed or even important. As for adding to the Verse, did he? I don't think he brought anything.

So you watched Ats because of Spike?? Shame, because it was ten times better when he wasn't there. The whole season wasn't based on Story or past develkopments or dealing with Season 4. Season 5 was just a stage for the writers to make Angel and Spike argue and get a very childish use out of a very adult show.

However, its Joss I blame. He's there for the money now. He used to be a man who told stories and regardless of fan demand, did what the story needed. Fans demanded Angel stay good. He made him evil. Fans demanded Angelus' return in Season 3. He said no and we got Ats. Ats needed C/A and we got it. Fan demand and its gone again. Now it seems every decision is based on what a very small portion of fans want. Seems he goes where the money is. That's what worries me. People say no character is safe from the cut. Spike is.