ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark - Page 5

galathea · 09-03-2005, 11:51 AM

Well that's what I basically meant .. the whole curse thing seemed to be such a big deal with the perfect bliss blah blah but then they kept making it about sex all the time ... they were inconsistant ... verbally they always went: perfect happiness, hard to achieve yadda yadda ... but on screen it was always: Angels has sex .. whoops ... must look as if he loses his soul. It was just playing with the audience. If it would have been about sex only there would not have been the need for an episode like Awakening or the possibility of an episode like Eternity.

The curse was about the fact that the gypsies wanted Angel to suffer for eternity. The moment he was so happy and content that he didn't feel the weight of his guilt anymore he was destined to lose his soul. He didn't lose his soul with Buffy when they had sex, it was hours after that.
That's what they stated over and over again on the show, that it is very very rare and hard to achieve perfect happiness. So it was obvious that he wouldn't lose his soul to Darla, even when he himself might have thought so in that moment.

That's why I always believed that after the whole Buffy thing he could have had sex with anybody he liked since the moment he KNEW that there was a possibilty of losing his soul again he would never been relaxed enough to feel perfect contentment lol.

califi · 09-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Agree totally with that.

Christine · 09-03-2005, 04:22 PM

In that talk Wes. and Angel had doesn't Angel bring up how its not a good thing for him to have relationships because of the curse or something, thus bringing it up again, like anyone could of forgotton. What really was the point of all that? Unless, like you said, something about teasing the audience. In the end you realized Wes was really thinking of Fred, and himself, when he was talking to Angel about going forward with Nina. Again, the conversation was dumb because of the recent death of Cordy, but the writers could of changed things and they didn't. Wes. could have mentioned her. If there was any reason Wesley himself should take action with Fred, the A/C situation, of never declaring their love soon enough, and missing their chance, would be a reason. I think it was all done on purpose actually, (no mention of A/C, which was ashame because it would of been much more dramatic, better writing.

galathea · 09-03-2005, 04:49 PM

No it wasn't about the curse. He mentions it but actually it was about Angel having too much emotional baggage to become invested in an relationship again. He got the feeling that Nina thought about him in a far more *man of her dreams* way than he would be able to be.

WESLEY(stands, throws his hands up, paces):Hiding behind your gypsy curse when there's a beautiful, engaging—all right, occasionally hirsute—young woman who actually wants you?
ANGEL: Wes, it's not gonna happen.
WESLEY: Why?
ANGEL (stands, emphatic):Because I'm not that guy. That guy is charming and funny and... emotionally useful. I'm the guy in a dark corner with the blood habit and the 200 years of psychic baggage.
WESLEY: Get over it!

I never really took that Nina thing serious. He loved two times and lost his love and was about to go on a suicide mission ... why not *get over it* and get it going for once without all that *emotional stuff*.

tojoson · 09-03-2005, 06:31 PM

it seems, to me, that a few episodes after your welcome were written as if SMG did come back for the 100th episode, we don't know what would have gone down in that episode, but we wouldn't have had Cordy die or even wake from the coma, but when SMG couldn't come back, they rewrote the 100th episode, but didn't bother to change the following episodes to reflect that fact (that would explain the lack of reference to Cordy dying)

as far as jumping the shark,
in BTVS i think when Spike fell in love with Buffy, Siike was at his best with the chip, but evil. (who can beat "you made a bear, undo it, undo it"

in ATS, Groo appears in WITW (they built C/A up to it's peak, and dashed it to death in 5 seconds

brownsbros3 · 09-04-2005, 12:41 PM

I never thought about that, but yeah, there could definitely be a case made for Groo reappearing in Waiting in the Wings as the place where the show started its downward slide. I liked the majority of the characters on ATS, but just never could get into the Groosalugg. It was one of the WTF moments (and not in a good way). To me, Cordelia had come along way over the course of season 1-the first part of season 3, but Groo's return was like a major step backwards for her.

As far as Nina, the excuse given at the beginning of Power Play was something about Angel didn't change, because he prevented himself from having a coherent thought during intercourse. That was a lame excuse.

It isn't just sex. To me, it needed to be with someone that he was in love with. There were only two people Angel ever admitted to being in love with Buffy and Cordy. Those were also the only two that triggered the change.

The reason the episodes immediately after the 100th episode looked like they had been written because Buffy came back, was because that was their original plan. Sarah Michelle Gellar told the Sci Fi Wire that she had originally agreed to comeback for that episode, but later had to back out due to a death in her family.

galathea · 09-08-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v120176

Don't forget that according to WB only a 30% of BTVS fans watched ATS, but according to the ratings and the official raking of tv shows for that year, ATS and BTVS had almost the same rating, so it worked both ways: only 30% of ATs fans watched BTVS (that's pure logic), so for a lot of people Buffy, Giles, B/A/S, Xander, Andrew, etc meant nothing and couldn't care less for them.... and they based the whole season in the promise of Buffy coming to town....

I am looking for a source to that numbers .. can you remember where you read that?

v120176 · 09-08-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galathea

I am looking for a source to that numbers .. can you remember where you read that?

I remember that from several articules, some of them interviews to Jordan Levin. They said The WB had those numbers.

galathea · 09-08-2005, 11:37 AM

Thank you !

09-03-2005, 11:51 AM	#61
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Well that's what I basically meant .. the whole curse thing seemed to be such a big deal with the perfect bliss blah blah but then they kept making it about sex all the time ... they were inconsistant ... verbally they always went: perfect happiness, hard to achieve yadda yadda ... but on screen it was always: Angels has sex .. whoops ... must look as if he loses his soul. It was just playing with the audience. If it would have been about sex only there would not have been the need for an episode like Awakening or the possibility of an episode like Eternity. The curse was about the fact that the gypsies wanted Angel to suffer for eternity. The moment he was so happy and content that he didn't feel the weight of his guilt anymore he was destined to lose his soul. He didn't lose his soul with Buffy when they had sex, it was hours after that. That's what they stated over and over again on the show, that it is very very rare and hard to achieve perfect happiness. So it was obvious that he wouldn't lose his soul to Darla, even when he himself might have thought so in that moment. That's why I always believed that after the whole Buffy thing he could have had sex with anybody he liked since the moment he KNEW that there was a possibilty of losing his soul again he would never been relaxed enough to feel perfect contentment lol. Last edited by galathea; 09-03-2005 at 12:20 PM.

09-03-2005, 01:18 PM	#62
califi Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Total PissedOff Land -first right. Posts: 1,930	Agree totally with that. __________________ "Oh, Cordeeeeelia, how I feeeeel ya!" GoTeam C/A

09-03-2005, 06:31 PM	#65
tojoson Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: st. clair shores, michigan usa Posts: 4,450	it seems, to me, that a few episodes after your welcome were written as if SMG did come back for the 100th episode, we don't know what would have gone down in that episode, but we wouldn't have had Cordy die or even wake from the coma, but when SMG couldn't come back, they rewrote the 100th episode, but didn't bother to change the following episodes to reflect that fact (that would explain the lack of reference to Cordy dying) as far as jumping the shark, in BTVS i think when Spike fell in love with Buffy, Siike was at his best with the chip, but evil. (who can beat "you made a bear, undo it, undo it" in ATS, Groo appears in WITW (they built C/A up to it's peak, and dashed it to death in 5 seconds __________________ don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened

09-03-2005, 04:22 PM	#63
Christine Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 45	In that talk Wes. and Angel had doesn't Angel bring up how its not a good thing for him to have relationships because of the curse or something, thus bringing it up again, like anyone could of forgotton. What really was the point of all that? Unless, like you said, something about teasing the audience. In the end you realized Wes was really thinking of Fred, and himself, when he was talking to Angel about going forward with Nina. Again, the conversation was dumb because of the recent death of Cordy, but the writers could of changed things and they didn't. Wes. could have mentioned her. If there was any reason Wesley himself should take action with Fred, the A/C situation, of never declaring their love soon enough, and missing their chance, would be a reason. I think it was all done on purpose actually, (no mention of A/C, which was ashame because it would of been much more dramatic, better writing.

09-03-2005, 04:49 PM	#64
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	No it wasn't about the curse. He mentions it but actually it was about Angel having too much emotional baggage to become invested in an relationship again. He got the feeling that Nina thought about him in a far more man of her dreams way than he would be able to be. WESLEY(stands, throws his hands up, paces):Hiding behind your gypsy curse when there's a beautiful, engaging—all right, occasionally hirsute—young woman who actually wants you? ANGEL: Wes, it's not gonna happen. WESLEY: Why? ANGEL (stands, emphatic):Because I'm not that guy. That guy is charming and funny and... emotionally useful. I'm the guy in a dark corner with the blood habit and the 200 years of psychic baggage. WESLEY: Get over it! I never really took that Nina thing serious. He loved two times and lost his love and was about to go on a suicide mission ... why not get over it and get it going for once without all that emotional stuff.

09-04-2005, 12:41 PM	#66
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	I never thought about that, but yeah, there could definitely be a case made for Groo reappearing in Waiting in the Wings as the place where the show started its downward slide. I liked the majority of the characters on ATS, but just never could get into the Groosalugg. It was one of the WTF moments (and not in a good way). To me, Cordelia had come along way over the course of season 1-the first part of season 3, but Groo's return was like a major step backwards for her. As far as Nina, the excuse given at the beginning of Power Play was something about Angel didn't change, because he prevented himself from having a coherent thought during intercourse. That was a lame excuse. It isn't just sex. To me, it needed to be with someone that he was in love with. There were only two people Angel ever admitted to being in love with Buffy and Cordy. Those were also the only two that triggered the change. The reason the episodes immediately after the 100th episode looked like they had been written because Buffy came back, was because that was their original plan. Sarah Michelle Gellar told the Sci Fi Wire that she had originally agreed to comeback for that episode, but later had to back out due to a death in her family.

09-08-2005, 11:37 AM	#69
galathea Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Thank you !