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Old 08-07-2005, 06:44 PM   #31
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You can also look at what attracted Angel to the two girls. He knew Buffy was the slayer before he had formally introduced himself to her. One could make a case that if she wasn't the slayer, that he wouldn't have given her the time of day. The same could be said for Spike as well. They were more attracted to what she was than who.

With Cordelia, Angel was attracted to the type of person she was becoming. She had developed this desire to help people. She was the shoulder he could lean on for support. Plus, not only had she become the heart of AI, but also the conscience as well.
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Old 08-07-2005, 06:57 PM   #32
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I think B/A appeals to some people in the same way fairy tales and romance novels do. I think just about every female fantasizes about a handsome, mysterious guy sweeping you off your feet. About a guy being totally devoted to you, and you being his whole world. About having the big, epic, melodramatic romance. That's what B/A was to me. And it didn't matter that Angel barely had a personality, and seemed to vanish into the shadows unless dealing directly with Buffy, and seemed to have no life beyond her, because he was basically a romantic ideal. He didn't need to be a fully rounded person in order to fill that role.

You know, I was at another message board (a long time ago) where some B/Aers were talking about not liking Angel on AtS because, basically, they fleshed him out too much. They liked him best as a tall, dark, broody, mysterious guy, always there when Buffy needed him. When AtS started rounding out the character (turning him into a person with actual thoughts and feelings all his own) he was kind of pulled out of that romantic ideal a little bit. Some fans preferred thinking of him as a knight in shining armor who had no wants or dreams of his own, and whose only reason for being was to do Buffy's bidding. Thinking of him as an actual person who deserved to be more than Buffy's on-call guy (I wracked my brain for something nicer than "lapdog", and that's all I could come up with) took some of the sparkle out of the romance for them.
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Old 08-07-2005, 11:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyblue
I think B/A appeals to some people in the same way fairy tales and romance novels do. I think just about every female fantasizes about a handsome, mysterious guy sweeping you off your feet. About a guy being totally devoted to you, and you being his whole world. About having the big, epic, melodramatic romance. That's what B/A was to me. And it didn't matter that Angel barely had a personality, and seemed to vanish into the shadows unless dealing directly with Buffy, and seemed to have no life beyond her, because he was basically a romantic ideal. He didn't need to be a fully rounded person in order to fill that role.

You know, I was at another message board (a long time ago) where some B/Aers were talking about not liking Angel on AtS because, basically, they fleshed him out too much. They liked him best as a tall, dark, broody, mysterious guy, always there when Buffy needed him. When AtS started rounding out the character (turning him into a person with actual thoughts and feelings all his own) he was kind of pulled out of that romantic ideal a little bit. Some fans preferred thinking of him as a knight in shining armor who had no wants or dreams of his own, and whose only reason for being was to do Buffy's bidding. Thinking of him as an actual person who deserved to be more than Buffy's on-call guy (I wracked my brain for something nicer than "lapdog", and that's all I could come up with) took some of the sparkle out of the romance for them.

Wordy McWord-Word. That dovetails just perfectly with my theory on why Oz was also beloved while so many of the audience had issues (to put it kindly) with Xander. On BtVS, Angel and Oz existed mostly to be Buffy and Willow's boyfriends, and extremely idealized versions at that. The whole "I fell in love with you at first sight, when nobody else noticed how wonderful/special you are, and now I exist mainly to be your boyfriend" thing. Whereas Xander, since he started out as a main character, was written to have flaws, including making mistakes romantically, just like any real teen-age boy, like being interested in girls except the one who was crushing on him, not handling rejection well immediately, carrying a torch for a girl who'd already rejected him, being jealous of other guys, losing his virginity in a one night stand, etc. And God help him, Xander got hammered by the audience for every. single. one.
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:19 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyblue
I think B/A appeals to some people in the same way fairy tales and romance novels do. I think just about every female fantasizes about a handsome, mysterious guy sweeping you off your feet. About a guy being totally devoted to you, and you being his whole world. About having the big, epic, melodramatic romance. That's what B/A was to me. And it didn't matter that Angel barely had a personality, and seemed to vanish into the shadows unless dealing directly with Buffy, and seemed to have no life beyond her, because he was basically a romantic ideal. He didn't need to be a fully rounded person in order to fill that role.

You know, I was at another message board (a long time ago) where some B/Aers were talking about not liking Angel on AtS because, basically, they fleshed him out too much. They liked him best as a tall, dark, broody, mysterious guy, always there when Buffy needed him. When AtS started rounding out the character (turning him into a person with actual thoughts and feelings all his own) he was kind of pulled out of that romantic ideal a little bit. Some fans preferred thinking of him as a knight in shining armor who had no wants or dreams of his own, and whose only reason for being was to do Buffy's bidding. Thinking of him as an actual person who deserved to be more than Buffy's on-call guy (I wracked my brain for something nicer than "lapdog", and that's all I could come up with) took some of the sparkle out of the romance for them.
I agree with this assessment completely. I never got too into B/A for the same reason a lot of people already mentioned... it was too dramatic, too overdone, and some of that dialogue seriously made me flinch. I didn't like the way that B/A seemed to become the circle the show revolved around for most of S2 and 3. To me, B/A seemed more about fitting the archetype of the idealized, Romeo-Juliet tragic romance designed to make teenage female fans swoon than actually being a story about two people falling in love.

I fell in love with C/A b/c it was a more gradual, mature, adult relationship. I got sold on C/A because they started out as friends--it wasn't strangers to true luff in the course of 5 episodes (and the falling in love with Buffy when she was 15 thing is a pretty big squick factor for me, too). Maybe that's another issue I have with B/A. They never "sold" it to us. We were just supposed to accept it because, you know, they're the OTP. But C/A developed slowly and kind of unexpectedly (to the characters at least) which was a large part of its appeal to me. I actually liked C/A the least when it started getting all angsted-up and Dawson's Creekish with the love triangles and such.

So I don't know. I guess I don't mind watching the old B/A stuff that much b/c at the time it had a purpose. But by S3 I was over all the drama and angst and by S4 and beyond, well, as far as I was concerned the 'ship had run its course. Any attempts to keep it on artificial life support (and whoever came up with that, I stole it, but I love it! So fitting) just didn't work for me. In fact I think it held both characters back, especially Angel. Seeing him run back to Sunnydale to apologize to Buffy irked me and seemed like a huge step back for the character. Then there's the "Chosen" appearance and "The Girl in Question..." well, that's another rant for another time.

So yeah, I guess you can say it was OK at the time, but I just can't see wanting B/A together after the end of (BtVS) S3...
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Old 08-08-2005, 07:36 AM   #35
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My personal dilemma is solved yay me. I figured out that it's actually okay to ship B/A and cry watching Becoming Part 2... because like Dannyblue said their is a nostalga factor when BTVS first aired I was in my last junior high year going on to high school. So the whole Romeo & Juliet factor really sweetened the deal and got me hooked on BTVS, plus I loved the characters of Buffy and Willow. High school rolled around I was a sophomore when BTVS season 3 aired and was in that type of B/A romance/relationship well b/c Josh McGarry was my first love and will always have a place in my heart, but by the middle of my junior year we drifted apart due to the fact that he was a senior and was going to be graduating leaving me behind. I cried, cried and cried some more I felt like Buffy during the Prom eppy. But it was for the best, hindsight is always 20/20, and I realized that we both had changed, and what we had was special but it's something that cannot rekindled. Now a senior in college and in a relationship well going on 3 1/2 years. I know why appealed to me about C/A, they had friendship, trust, love, and knew everything about each other. Which is how me and my guy Eric are, he knows things about me that I would have never told Josh. So wrapping this up, I like the B/A for it's high school relatiblity, but dig and ship A/C for it's mature, believable portrayal of a romance most likely to end in a happy marriage, by that I mean they had a healthy relationship which if living in the normal real world would end in wedding bells.
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Old 08-08-2005, 09:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyblue
(I wracked my brain for something nicer than "lapdog", and that's all I could come up with)
I like Florrie's pet term: "handbag." It makes me think of BtVS Angel as Buffy's little pink plastic Hello Kitty purse. With fangs.
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Old 08-08-2005, 10:41 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Century
I like Florrie's pet term: "handbag." It makes me think of BtVS Angel as Buffy's little pink plastic Hello Kitty purse. With fangs.
You gave me a visual that's going to have me grinning all day long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CordyAngelSeer
So wrapping this up, I like the B/A for it's high school relatiblity, but dig and ship A/C for it's mature, believable portrayal of a romance most likely to end in a happy marriage, by that I mean they had a healthy relationship which if living in the normal real world would end in wedding bells.
Back in the B/A days, when I thought about it, I couldn't actually see them lasting. Or, even if they sort of lasted, I couldn't see them changing and evolving. I remember when Joyce had that talk with Angel, the romantic in me wanted to argue with what she was saying, but the pragmatist in me couldn't because she was right on many levels. (Of course, like a teen who clings to a relationship more when other people seem to disapprove of it, I chose to ignore the truth in what Joyce was saying at the time.)

With C/A, I had no problem at all imagining them as a couple of eighty years olds (long after Angel had shoe-shined ) bickering and arguing. And Angel pinches her on the behind, which makes her give him a good tongue-lashing...but you can see the twinkle in her eye.

One thing occurs to me thanks to all of this discussion. When Buffy would scold Angel (for lack of a better word) the soul point seemed to be to make him feel like dirt for whatever it was he'd done to her. When Cordy did it, it was because...okay, yeah, she was pissed. But she also knew he was capable of making better decisions than whatever bone-headed, dumb-assed decision he'd made to piss her off in the first place. She was letting him know she believed he was capable of making the right choices and doing the right thing...all evidence to the contrary aside.
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Old 08-08-2005, 10:50 AM   #38
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The way I see it, Angel simply had more fun with Cordelia. She would make him smile, amuse him (it all goes back to that money thing), she actually made him feel good about himself. She was able to insult him without really insulting him, and vice versa (Fredless, and Tomorrow). These two genuinely cared about each other. It definitely wasn't love at first sight, but it grew into love. And it was good until S4.

And she made him do the happy clothes dance, which in itself is enough reason for them to be together. Buffy made him a pansy ass.\

ETA: Come on, now! Contrast and compare! This:



and this...


I used S2 Cordy and Angel because that was the real Cordy and Angel...before they screwed it up. I used S3 of B/A because, really, they didn't change.
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:04 PM   #39
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Some people like the Romeo & Juliet type romance, where there's angst, and exsquisite pain, and all that good stuff. I like it too. But I've always preferred love stories that make me smile, that make me feel like these two characters (who I like) will make each other happy. And better.

I loved it that C/A made me smile...and made each other smile, and made everybody smile. I loved it that being around each other made them happy. I mean, (to paraphrase) "When I'm with you I want to die?" I guess it's supposed to be romantic, but it doesn't sound all that great to me. I liked the fact that the thought of meeting up with Cordy made Angel start humming a whole lot more.

And I knew we were in trouble the minute Fred and Lorne started talking about destiny, and fate, and "written in the stars". I thought, "Uh oh. Instead of letting it develop naturally, which is what made it great, there gonna start to push it, with the angst and the epic-ness, and they're gonna ruin it." Sadly, they didn't seem to realize C/A didn't need all those trappings to be great. And that's why it was so great. We didn't need them declaring undying love every five minutes. Just seeing sitting around talking was wonderful.

And now, I need to go read some season 2/3 fic. (*sigh*)
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:50 AM   #40
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Don't forget Buffy's "I can't breathe!" That line was just so horribly lame that instead of tearing up, I was laughing.

When you get right down to it, Angel was kind of a wuss on BTVS. It wasn't until he got around Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley and the rest of the crew that he actually started to believe that he was capable of more than being Buffy's lapdog.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:33 PM   #41
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I mean, (to paraphrase) "When I'm with you I want to die?" I guess it's supposed to be romantic, but it doesn't sound all that great to me. (*sigh*)
Wasn't the line? "When you kiss me, I want to die." Also wasn't it David Greenwalt who wrote that line?...
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by You're Welcome
Wasn't the line? "When you kiss me, I want to die." Also wasn't it David Greenwalt who wrote that line?...
She did say she was paraphrasing.

And I don't care who wrote the line, it still leaves a lot to be desired IMO.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:43 PM   #43
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Well, its just a lot of people on this site make Joss out to be a retard who can't write, and blame Ats' demise on David Greenwalt leaving and Joss taking over the helm. Joss wrote my favourite scene in Angel. If you're wondering which scene, see my name.
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Cordy:You're a lot smarter than you look! 'Course, you look like a retard.

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Old 08-09-2005, 06:47 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by You're Welcome
Well, its just a lot of people on this site make Joss out to be a retard who can't write, and blame Ats' demise on David Greenwalt leaving and Joss taking over the helm. Joss wrote my favourite scene in Angel. If you're wondering which scene, see my name.
And they're entitled to that opinion, just as you're entitled to yours. Disagree all you want, but understand, just 'cause someone says "nuh-uh", it's not going to change many people's minds. *


* Penny Century can say "nuh-uh" with impunity. Just so ya know.
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:11 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by You're Welcome
Well, its just a lot of people on this site make Joss out to be a retard who can't write, and blame Ats' demise on David Greenwalt leaving and Joss taking over the helm. Joss wrote my favourite scene in Angel. If you're wondering which scene, see my name.
No one's ever said David Greenwalt was God that I know of. He can write a stupid line now and then just like every writer. But, for the most part, Greenwalt was better at keeping characters consistent and having the storylines flow from the characters instead of making the characters fit into a story they wanted to tell. Joss is notorious for doing the latter and freely admitted he doesn't care so much about consistency in characters or plot.

So, even if Greenwalt wrote that one line (and he did direct "The Girl in Question" so - duh!Not Perfect!), he still rates well above Joss on the talent scale in my book just for this reason. Then there's the evidence that Ats was doing reasonably well in S1-3 while Greenwalt was there and hit the crapper in S4 and S5 when he wasn't - just for example.
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