AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[aikakone]

Originally Posted by Emmangel

Aww come on. We could have one of our internet famous parties! Full of buzz words and catchphrases!

All 15 of could have a ball!

Ah, the group of 15. That's one of my favorite jokes EVAR! Especially after meeting Emma, Cantinera and Keisha 4 and a half years ago (wow! that long ago!).

I love the power. Vote Stranger (tm) in the next election!

Anyhow, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. While PC is warming up, I'll bring the popcorn and cheese cubes. (What? I like cheese!)

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by Emmangel

All 15 of could have a ball!

We could exercise our awe-inspiring TV programming influence by putting Angel back on the schedule so we can cancel it again. TEH FUNZ!!11!Q@((!)!

[Angela]

Would that mean my "Shut Up, Joss" paraphenalia would be relevant again? If so, I am IN!

[Penny Century]

All righty, then. Discuss amongst yourselves: How is it that the most athletic, physically fit actress on either show played a character who was consistently framed as The Most Likely To Get Her Butt Kicked In A Real Fight? And what does that say about the writers' ideas on real female empowerment, i.e., that apparently it has to come from an external source, e.g., "magic" or (oh, I love this one) "destiny"?

Let's get warmed up.

[tojoson]

Let me just add some more fuel to the fire here:

We all know that jass blamed Charisma for the failure of season 4 (so what else is new, He always blames his failures on someone else) Having to scrap and rewrite a lot of the season. They always gave the impression that Charisma didn't tell them she was pregnant until somewhere around the time it was revealed on C-C.com, and they had to do major work to rewrite the episodes.

Well, I have finally found an interview that refutes that. (i read it a long time ago, and I have been searching for it for a year)

It's from Angel Magezine issue #10 July/August 2005

Question
Can you reveal a now-it-can be-told secret about Angel - something you can talk about now without getting yourself or someone else in trouble.

Answer
(Laughs)Season Four. I'd just become the big Kahuna. We were sitting around in the writer's room, talking about what the season was going to be, what the big bad was and we kind of came up with the idea that, "Oh my God, it's Cordelia!" We thought it'd be brilliant.

We called Joss into the room and said, "Okay, this is it! She comes back. And the big reveal at the end is... it's Cordelia!" It was like this cool moment, this little secret between all of us. And three days later Charisma was pregnant, so suddenly our Big Bad was the Big Mom. And your not going to do a lot of drop kicks across the room when your pregnant. The plan had always been for her to become the Big Bad and let Connor rule at her side. That's somethimng we couldn't talk about before, but it's one of those things were I think, :"Oh that could have been very different. that could have been awesome."

Now, for season 5, Charisma said that at her birthday celebration, it struck her that the rest of the gang would be going back to work the next day, but she would be unemployed, so that puts them going back around the last week of July. And they aren't going to bring the actors back if they don't have a script for them to work on, so the writers had to start earlier to break the season, decide what they wanted them to do, and write, at least, the first script--that probably takes about 2 weeks, so that puts the writers coming back around the 2nd week of July, and if Charisma came in 3 days after they started to break the season that puts them knowing about her pregnancy around July 15th, when she was about 3-4 weeks pregnant, not the 2-3 months they led us to believe.

Or, do we think that the writers broke the entire season, and wrote the majority of the seasons episodes in 3 days before Charisma told them she was pregnant

[Pythia]

Well, Penny there was the AmnesiaCordy vampire fight with Connor but as I never know when the full possession happened, does that count?

I could live with the storyline, even C/C, so much more if they hadn't used Jasmine to essentially say that 'every part of your lives was faked' to the characters, that part kills me. But then I liked the x-over idea of it being The First Evil baby Cordelia was carrying, that could have helped make sense of both season 4 & 7.

[JoJo]

Originally Posted by Penny Century

All righty, then. Discuss amongst yourselves: How is it that the most athletic, physically fit actress on either show played a character who was consistently framed as The Most Likely To Get Her Butt Kicked In A Real Fight? And what does that say about the writers' ideas on real female empowerment, i.e., that apparently it has to come from an external source, e.g., "magic" or (oh, I love this one) "destiny"?

Let's get warmed up.

Don't get me started, woman, don't get me started.

Okay, I'll get started. I never understood why scrawny little nearsighted Fred, who weighed 90 pounds soaking wet went out on demon hunting trips. She was a liability in a fight, not an asset.

The notion that Whedon is a feminist is right up there with 'George Bush is a genius'. Apparently, Willow possessing a genius level IQ and super duper computer hacking abilities wasn't enough, she had to become a witch to keep up, meanwhile, all Xander had to do was learn how to use a hammer to be a useful member of the group.

Angel and Spike learned to control their inner demons while Cordy and Fred get devoured by theirs.

As for blaming CC for the dismal S4, I'm sure it wasn't her idea to turn Connor into a creepy, violent, petulant, stupid, psycho, nor, I'm sure, was it her idea film every episode in a half-light, have Angel watch Cordy and Connor do the horizontal bop, and end the season with a dull arc starring one of Joss's Fireflop actors.

We all know that jass blamed Charisma for the failure of season 4 (so what else is new, He always blames his failures on someone else) Having to scrap and rewrite a lot of the season. They always gave the impression that Charisma didn't tell them she was pregnant until somewhere around the time it was revealed on C-C.com, and they had to do major work to rewrite the episodes.

Considering that CC's baby weight showed in her face in the 'big, giant floating head' scenes in the beginning of S4 and she looked visibly pregnant from the moment she de-ascended, I don't buy the "We didn't know she was preggers until the middle of the season" argument. Why they just didn't have her sitting behind the reception desk or wearing larger clothing is beyond me.

Yes, JW does like to blame everyone else for his failures, doesn't he. No, Joss, Fireflop didn't fail because FOX aired the eps out of order, it failed because the literal space western aspect was really stupid and made the show impossible to take seriously as a futuristic drama, it had too many main characters and they were all recycled from Buffy/Angel.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by tojoson

And they aren't going to bring the actors back if they don't have a script for them to work on, so the writers had to start earlier to break the season, decide what they wanted them to do, and write, at least, the first script--that probably takes about 2 weeks, so that puts the writers coming back around the 2nd week of July, and if Charisma came in 3 days after they started to break the season that puts them knowing about her pregnancy around July 15th...

If I'm not mistaken, they come back in June to start to break the season. So it's more likely she told them in June, probably as soon as she found out.

Who was speaking in this quote? Tim Minear or someone else?

[chatty]

if Charisma came in 3 days after they started to break the season that puts them knowing about her pregnancy around July 15th, when she was about 3-4 weeks pregnant, not the 2-3 months they led us to believe.

I'm not very good at counting dates forward, much less backwards, but I really don't think it's unrealistic to wait 2-3 months before informing your employer that you're pregnant. Most women I know waited until after the first trimester before telling almost everyone! I do feel like it shouldn't have hampered creative writers. Challenges should inspire greater creativity, not tried, true (and cheesy-ass) storylines.

I always wished JW would have let Cordelia be a bit more ass-kicking and less of the victim. Angel saved DiDs everyday, and while saving Cordelia had a bit more meaning, I thrilled to the episodes where she tried to save herself. I hated the ones where she was cheapened, trivialized or portrayed as some one-dimensional ditz.


Not sure if this makes sense (pre-coffee) ... but here's something I've always wondered: Why couldn't Cordelia have still been the big evil fallen angel they wanted while pregnant? Was it simply because of the maternity leave? Because instead of ending the season with the revelation of Cordelia being "it", why couldn't they have done that half way through and had the 2nd part focus on the struggle of the team to regroup? Emotional storylines always seemed to fall on the wayside to big battles and such, but really, it was the emotional aspects that I found so compelling

[tojoson]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

Who was speaking in this quote? Tim Minear or someone else?

I'm sorry, I meant to put that in

It was Jeff Bell in the interview

[samsmom]

Truthfully, I wasn't all that thrilled to find out Cordy was going to be the big bad of the season if she hadn't gotten pregnant. Didn't Joss already do that in BtVS s2? And BtVS s6?

Nice originality, ME.

How about Cordelia dealing with being part demon and all the horrible, scary ways her demoness would have manifested? That's one idea. Or spending the season attempting to reach Connor, to save him from Holtz's idea of child-rearing? They could have kept all the Connor angst and NONE of the ConCord squick that still has me retching a little in my mouth when I think about it.

To be able to kick ass in Joss's world, you have to be a scrawny, baby-talking, genius half-nut. If you're a confident, beautiful, self-realized woman who takes no shit and keeps the hero grounded, you're just fodder for the story.

I have no idea how constructive my post is, but meh, I'm still waiting for Penny to unleash The Beast.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by chatty

I'm not very good at counting dates forward, much less backwards, but I really don't think it's unrealistic to wait 2-3 months before informing your employer that you're pregnant. Most women I know waited until after the first trimester before telling almost everyone!

That's true in the normal world. But when your job revolves, to an exorbitant degree, around your appearance as does acting, it would not be reasonable to wait that long to inform your employer, IMO. And I'm sure CC was responsible enough not to wait that long considering she would be fully aware that they were breaking the season when she found out. It just goes against all common sense unless she was truly not aware she was pregnant for several months.

[Marcy]

I love reading you guys' insights. They're great and so true!
You know I get so upset at all the fans that adore and believe in JW wholeheartedly. I just dont get how they can. He ruined so much!
Also, did the destruction of Cordelia begin before or after David Greenwalt's exit? I know he really loved her character so I'd like to think if he had stayed on, it wouldnt have gone so horribly wrong.

[samsmom]

I think he left at the end of s3. Her character was fine then, except for the lame ascension as a higher power.

It was downhill after that.

[LordKain]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Truthfully, I wasn't all that thrilled to find out Cordy was going to be the big bad of the season if she hadn't gotten pregnant. Didn't Joss already do that in BtVS s2? And BtVS s6?

Nice originality, ME.

How about Cordelia dealing with being part demon and all the horrible, scary ways her demoness would have manifested? That's one idea. Or spending the season attempting to reach Connor, to save him from Holtz's idea of child-rearing? They could have kept all the Connor angst and NONE of the ConCord squick that still has me retching a little in my mouth when I think about it.

To be able to kick ass in Joss's world, you have to be a scrawny, baby-talking, genius half-nut. If you're a confident, beautiful, self-realized woman who takes no shit and keeps the hero grounded, you're just fodder for the story.

I have no idea how constructive my post is, but meh, I'm still waiting for Penny to unleash The Beast.

Don't forget they also did it with season 3 as well with Wesley.

What the hell kind of drugs were they taking.

It's kind of funny I thought that Fred and Willow were a couple of the worst characters in both shows along with Andrew as well.

I'll tell you what happened with David Boreanaz later on but I'll just say this it's just as bad as what happened with Charisma as well.

Originally Posted by samsmom

I think he left at the end of s3. Her character was fine then, except for the lame ascension as a higher power.

It was downhill after that.

her character was anything but fine shall we go down the list:

Swooning over Lindsey's performance in Cartias in Dead End like a rockstar groupie when this was the same guy who no less then 6 months ago held her very life in the parm of his hands.

Pylea anyone.

Birthday

When Gro came back after WITW epsiode once Gro came back she turned into the same dizy moron she was back in sunnydale.