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Old 07-25-2007, 10:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by djchika View Post
It's nice to find a place where the HP talk isn't so intense.
Yeah? I'm having the opposite experience. None of my usual hang outs (that all went nuts with HBP) seem to even care that DH is out beyond 'it was good' and 'Molly/Neville kick ass'.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:14 AM   #62
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Yeah? I'm having the opposite experience. None of my usual hang outs (that all went nuts with HBP) seem to even care that DH is out beyond 'it was good' and 'Molly/Neville kick ass'.
I'm having the same problem, with the exception of F_W. And even skimming through 3500 links to capslock o' RAGE or "Dumbledore sucks!" or "JKR is a horrible writer" or...well, the usual is just too much work to be any fun.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:56 AM   #63
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Wow, this is pretty much the only place I've gone to for a HP discussion. I had no idea that there was such a bad reaction to the book.

Then again, I know quite a few people, here and on LJ, that were upset with HPB but I think that was because of 'ships.

I'd rather have a small interesting discussion then sort through 50 pages of OMG!!!!
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:00 PM   #64
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I'm having the same problem, with the exception of F_W.
Even F_W is far more restrained than I'd thought it would be, and I was hoping for more than rage.

There are a couple of decent essays at The HMS STFU though. Non-shipping, even.

As an aside, the contingent who think Dumbledore sucks missed the point terribly. Heck, I'm even starting to come around on Snape. He'll always be a lousy teacher though.

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Then again, I know quite a few people, here and on LJ, that were upset with HPB but I think that was because of 'ships.
In a lot of cases, yeah. Many others I saw barely mentioned who was swapping spit with whom. Then again, there was more to speculate about than there is now, I suppose.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:56 PM   #65
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As an aside, the contingent who think Dumbledore sucks missed the point terribly.
I don't think he sucks. But I do have some quibbles about just how much information he withheld from Harry, and how much he left to chance, really. But that's all tied into some confusion about whether or not Harry needed to possess all three Deathly Hallows in order to cheat death a second time, or whether his blood flowing through Voldemort's veins was in and of itself, sufficient. I'm still pondering.

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Heck, I'm even starting to come around on Snape. He'll always be a lousy teacher though.
There was never any doubt in my mind that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and that we'd find out why. But yeah - lousy teacher, and, quite frankly, not a very nice human being in general. After all, he was pretty mean to Hermione and Ron too, and they didn't look like James Potter. Even worse, he was devastatingly cruel to Neville in the earlier books, and Neville's family never did a damn thing to him. So... Snape ultimately working on the same side as Dumbledore? Sure. But Snape as a good guy, or even a really good person? Nope. Not buying it.

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Then again, there was more to speculate about than there is now, I suppose.
I think that's a mark of how well plotted the story was over the seven books, and how well Rowling actually did tie it up. There weren't too many loose ends to discuss - she really did have it all planned out meticulously. I went back to Book 1 yesterday because I wanted to see something, and in one of the very first chapters Harry opens a chocolate frog and gets Dumbledore as a trading card, and the very brief description on the card (in addition to mentioning Nicholas Flamel, which was critical to the Philosopher Stone plot), was that he defeated Grindelwald in a famous duel.

I also checked out the end of Chamber of Secrets, when Dumbledore is talking to Harry about his ability to communicate with snakes. In the context of explaining to Harry that Voldemort's curse backfired and some of his power was transferred to Harry, Harry very explicitly asks: "So Voldemort put part of himself into me?", which wasn't actually what Dumbledore had said. Foreshadowing, indeed.

ETA: According to this, those casting rumours for HBP are simply untrue: http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=22766
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:56 PM   #66
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Yeah? I'm having the opposite experience. None of my usual hang outs (that all went nuts with HBP) seem to even care that DH is out beyond 'it was good' and 'Molly/Neville kick ass'.
Well it seems that it's either that or arguements about pairings or ranting about how awful JKR's writing is because this or that character ended up this or that way. Not even objective ranting, just general whining. That's the reason I left the forums in the first place.

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There was never any doubt in my mind that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and that we'd find out why. But yeah - lousy teacher, and, quite frankly, not a very nice human being in general. After all, he was pretty mean to Hermione and Ron too, and they didn't look like James Potter. Even worse, he was devastatingly cruel to Neville in the earlier books, and Neville's family never did a damn thing to him. So... Snape ultimately working on the same side as Dumbledore? Sure. But Snape as a good guy, or even a really good person? Nope. Not buying it.
Me neither. I still love his character though. He's all very shades of gray. He isn't inherently good and it isn't that he's not evil either. He was just... selfish. He didn't care about Harry or James, he only cared about his love for lily.

I feel the same way about Draco. All the fanfic depicting him as this lonely, misunderstood boy who's really as good a person as Harry or Ron is an idealized version of the character. The simple fact is that he's just as selfish as Snape. He isn't evil or anything, just selfish.

I still kind of like the fanfic version of him though.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:23 PM   #67
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There was never any doubt in my mind that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and that we'd find out why. But yeah - lousy teacher, and, quite frankly, not a very nice human being in general. After all, he was pretty mean to Hermione and Ron too, and they didn't look like James Potter. Even worse, he was devastatingly cruel to Neville in the earlier books, and Neville's family never did a damn thing to him. So... Snape ultimately working on the same side as Dumbledore? Sure. But Snape as a good guy, or even a really good person? Nope. Not buying it.
That's where I'm at with Snape as well. I still don't like him, not really, and I still think he was a rotten person. Nothing in DH lead me to believe any differently. Where the difference comes in now for me, I suppose, is that I'm more interested in him as a character. I'm still not interested in his life pre-school, and any hint of mutual romance between he and Lily would leave me cold. (It's way too late to woobify Snape.) But the time period during which they were both enrolled at Hogwarts holds a great deal more interest for me now. For that matter, I'm a whole lot more interested in any kind of Maurauder-era fic. (Note: not necessarily fanfic. JKR-originated fic.)

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Well it seems that it's either that or arguements about pairings or ranting about how awful JKR's writing is because this or that character ended up this or that way. Not even objective ranting, just general whining. That's the reason I left the forums in the first place.
That's what I'm tired of already--the whining about how horrible a writer she is, how JKR is just a hack, blah blah blah. Strangely enough, most of these people thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread before HBP. Where, coincidentally, she also sank their 'ship. Or, if it's this book where they "saw the light", it's because of the horrible ending she gave Snape. You know, the up-until-this-point unredeemed character who killed Dumbledore in the last book, and who in the course of this book not only saves the day but proves to all that he was loyal to Dumbledore to the end...? Yeah, shameful the way she treated him.

And that's mostly why I don't read HP fanfic. I can't stand the woobification of characters like Snape and Draco, and it seems like 99.9% of the fanfic I come across does one or the other.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:44 PM   #68
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And that's mostly why I don't read HP fanfic. I can't stand the woobification of characters like Snape and Draco, and it seems like 99.9% of the fanfic I come across does one or the other.
HP fanfic for me has always been just that, fiction by fans. I enjoy Draco/Ginny stories but know that JKR's Draco would never do most of the things that he's made to do in fanfic.

There's this one fanfic by mochabutterfly that's post-war and Draco's living in the Muggle world as - of all things - a Canadian Mounty. It's absurd if you think about it but the way that the author writes the character makes it - well not believable - but enjoyable. It's Draco in that he looks like Draco and has the prejudices of Draco but everything else is different.

That's the wonder of fanfic and I think JKR knows that. Which is why the Epilogue is the way it is. She's aware of the huge fanbase on the Internet and she knows that people like playing with her character so she gave us just the barest of information so that we can explore on our own.

I know that the HP encyclopedia will provide a lot of backstory for the characters but in terms of post-war events. I think she's left it up to us to create our own HP worlds.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:11 AM   #69
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ETA: According to this, those casting rumours for HBP are simply untrue: http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=22766
Oh well. Would have been nice though.

I have NEVER read HP fanfic. For all of the reasons you've mentioned above and more. First and foremost for me it's about Harry and his destiny or whatever you choose to call it, and those who help him along the way and those who throw up the road blocks. I don't care who he's snogging in the hallways, I don't care who Ron is snogging in the hallways, and I don't care who Hermione is snogging in the hallways. There is nothing remotely romantic about Voldemort, he is not misunderstood, nor does he just need a hug. He is EVIL. Snape, while not the most evil person in the world, comes in a pretty close second.


Whew! I feel better.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:35 AM   #70
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That's the wonder of fanfic and I think JKR knows that. Which is why the Epilogue is the way it is. She's aware of the huge fanbase on the Internet and she knows that people like playing with her character so she gave us just the barest of information so that we can explore on our own.
See, I couldn't disagree more with this part. I agree that she does know about fanfic, and I agree that that played into why she wrote the epilogue the way she did. But I think it's set 19 years in the future so that no one can say Harry was just under a love spell that Hermione broke with the power of twu wub shortly after the events of the book, or that Ron and Hermione's abusive relationship ended up with Ron behind bars after Harry rescued poor, downtrodden Hermione, or that someone found proof that Snape really was just a sensitive little wooby behind all that greasy hair and dirty teeth, or that Draco became the poster boy for Muggle love after his burning lust for Harry overcame him or any of those other things that (some!) HP fen seem prone to write. I think she tried to make it as black and white as possible--Harry and Ginny are happily married with kids. Ron and Hermione are happily married with kids. Draco is married with a child, and he and Harry aren't openly at war, although they certainly aren't friendly either. The dead people are still dead, the living people are still alive, and everyone lived happily ever after. After all, this is the woman who once joked about killing off Harry Potter just to keep some novelist in the future from trying to pick up where she left off, a la Alexandra Ripley's sequel to Gone with the Wind.

Also, What LL Said.™
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:58 AM   #71
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Oh but I don't mean that she's giving fans the freedom to morph her characters into people they aren't. Just that she left room for some of the less important stuff to be up to us. Like whatever jobs Harry, Ginny, Ron and Hermione has, or who Draco's wife is, or how George was able to cope with Fred's loss.

Pairings aside, there are so many things that fans can speculate about the lives of the characters. And usually fanfic is the way they do it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:49 AM   #72
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I don't think he sucks.
Well, I gather the Dumbledore sucks crowd believes so because of his actions when he was a teenager. 'Cause apparently, as you are at 17, so you are at 70. Which, news to me.

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But I do have some quibbles about just how much information he withheld from Harry...
Depending what pieces you mean, I likely agree. But I also agree with DeadDumbledore about keeping some stuff from Harry due to his temperment. And truly, should you find that I need to die to save the world from an evil overload, feel free to keep that to yourself.

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...and how much he left to chance, really.
Yeah, but that's been true since Sorcerer's Stone.

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There was never any doubt in my mind that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and that we'd find out why.
I can't say I shared the same faith, but once I heard his punishment for stealing the sword was an evening with Hagrid in the forest, well, not wildly evil anyway. That said, Dumbledore's faith in Snape was only possible because nothing Snape had meant as much to him as Lily, so there was no chance that Dumbledore could cost Snape something sufficient for Snape to pull his allegiance.

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But yeah - lousy teacher, and, quite frankly, not a very nice human being in general.
In Snape's case, he was a lousy teacher because he was such a horrible human being. But I guess maybe there's room to see why Lily might have thought Snape wasn't a complete waste of her time. AS A FRIEND! ONLY! Until the mudblood incident at least. But the guy didn't feel remorse for his betrayal of Lily because it was wrong, he felt remorse because it cost him something. I suspect too a good deal of the reason why he was able to fool Voldemort was he truly didn't care if Voldemort killed Muggles or Mudbloods or Muggle Studies professors or anyone else. Even keeping Harry alive was about revenge on Voldemort, not for Harry's sake. So Snape was a good guy only if you stretch the definition of good guy to mean anyone not actively evil, and he was redeemed not at all as far as I'm concerned. Harry can make his own decision on that score though.

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There weren't too many loose ends to discuss - she really did have it all planned out meticulously.
I confess, I want to know how Voldemort came to still have his original wand when he returned. Specifically, where it had been since that night and how it got to where it was.

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ETA: According to this, those casting rumours for HBP are simply untrue...
Shame; Naomi Watts looks just like what I thought Narcissa would look like.

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Well it seems that it's either that or arguements about pairings or ranting about how awful JKR's writing is because this or that character ended up this or that way.
Ah. Well, yeah, I'd avoid that too.

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For that matter, I'm a whole lot more interested in any kind of Maurauder-era fic. (Note: not necessarily fanfic. JKR-originated fic.)
Put me down for a Hogwarts: Year Seven book. I'd like to see Ginny, Neville, Luna, and the rest of the DA in action while the Trio were elsewhere.

ETA JKR says Harry and Ron were Aurors.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:53 AM   #73
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Even F_W is far more restrained than I'd thought it would be, and I was hoping for more than rage.
I think it's because everyone had their major blow up after the last book, and while that people were perhaps expecting more of the same given it's the last book I think many were just glad it was a whole lot better than book 6, and left it at that.

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That's what I'm tired of already--the whining about how horrible a writer she is, how JKR is just a hack, blah blah blah. Strangely enough, most of these people thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread before HBP. Where, coincidentally, she also sank their 'ship.
I think it's more than ships though. Part of the problem was that HBP wasn't as well liked as say.. .OOTP all around. Not to say that the majority of people hated it, because most enjoyed it. Just that there were more than 'ship people who disliked it, and this seemed to stem from the fact that while JKR is on form with almost everything else, when it comes to writing relationships in the foreground, she seems to falter a little. Stuff like in the last book she's fine with, since they don't overwhelm the plot, but in book 6 is was all about Harry's chest monster, and Hermiones attack birds.

It felt out of place compared to the other books (though given their ages, natural that it'd feature in some regards), and because this wasn't her strongest area of writing, it grated on people while reading the book, no matter what ship pref. Though granted, the more fanaticial shippers did go somewhat overboard with their protests.

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Well, I gather the Dumbledore sucks crowd believes so because of his actions when he was a teenager. 'Cause apparently, as you are at 17, so you are at 70. Which, news to me.
For the record, I dislike Dumbledore because I felt him to be a manipulative old man, and though his intentions are good, I still disagree with his actions. I can't quite pinpoint why I feel that way though, I just do.

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Put me down for a Hogwarts: Year Seven book. I'd like to see Ginny, Neville, Luna, and the rest of the DA in action while the Trio were elsewhere.
Seconded. I was just thinking that, we were so far removed from that section of the story, that I'd love to see it expanded.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:11 AM   #74
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I think it's because everyone had their major blow up after the last book, and while that people were perhaps expecting more of the same given it's the last book I think many were just glad it was a whole lot better than book 6, and left it at that.
Perhaps you're right. Though I liked HBP, so not about that, obviously.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:44 AM   #75
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But I think it's set 19 years in the future so that no one can say Harry was just under a love spell that Hermione broke with the power of twu wub shortly after the events of the book, or that Ron and Hermione's abusive relationship ended up with Ron behind bars after Harry rescued poor, downtrodden Hermione, or that someone found proof that Snape really was just a sensitive little wooby behind all that greasy hair and dirty teeth, or that Draco became the poster boy for Muggle love after his burning lust for Harry overcame him or any of those other things that (some!) HP fen seem prone to write.
I'm not sure she had any ulterior motive - I honestly think she wrote the Epilogue the way she did because in her mind, that's the way the story ends. I don't think fans or fanfic factored into it at all.

But given that I'm neither a fanfic writer nor a fanfic reader (not just for HP, but for any fandom), I tend to hold the view that fans can write whatever they want to write for themselves as creative expression, and if others want to read it, then so much the better. The only time I think it gets irrational is when people get so caught up in their fanon versions of characters that they then become angry when Rowling's version deviates from what they have now convinced themselves is the truer version. Because frankly, Rowling has the last say, I think.

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'Cause apparently, as you are at 17, so you are at 70. Which, news to me.
Oh. That hadn't even occurred to me - I presumed the suckage complaints related to his lack of detailed instructions for Harry with respect to the Horcruxes and the Hallows. If they're complaining about what he was like at 17, then that is rather silly.

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And truly, should you find that I need to die to save the world from an evil overload, feel free to keep that to yourself.
Got it. Mum's the word. But by the by, I do need you to locate a few magical items and destroy them - but don't worry about the rest, it will all work itself out.

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I can't say I shared the same faith
I was pretty damn certain, but my faith was shaken a bit early on in the book when he very coolly ignored Charity's pleas for help. But then again, not a very nice guy, and probably didn't really care. Likely he and Dumbledore had discussed the fact that he would need to watch people tortured, and even killed, but that he could not let it sway him from the greater purpose which was protecting Harry.

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I confess, I want to know how Voldemort came to still have his original wand when he returned. Specifically, where it had been since that night and how it got to where it was.
Personally, the only real bit of curiousity for me at the moment is where Harry lived after school - I assume that his reconciliation with Kreacher led him to take up residence at 12 Grimmauld Place, but then again, there's always the screaming portrait of Mrs. Black to make that seem like a bad idea.

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ETA JKR says Harry and Ron were Aurors
Cool. And Hermione is sort of a lawyer? I wonder if Harry and Ron had to go back and get those 7th year NEWTs, or did the Ministry grant them special dispensation?
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