AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[JoJo]

She started taking over for Cordy (the disappearance, the amnesia, the possession) but she couldn't do it without whining. When did we ever see Cordelia Chase whine. She complained but with spunk and in a way that told you she was just ranting but that she loved who she was, what she did. Fred, she shouts at Dennis that Cordy isn'tcoming back because she can't deal. She whines at Gunn about everything she has to do, the bills, this, that, Connor, Angel, Cordelia, whine, whine, whine. Cordelia wouldn't have fallen apart. She does whine she can't do Wesley's job, but does do it. One bright spot of Season Five (until her deathbed scene when she became whiney again) was Fred did stop whining.

Precisely! Fred was such a poor substitute for Cordelia in every way.

One of the few times I liked Fred was in S5's In Harm's Way when she and Harmony went out after work. There Fred was in a bar drinking alcoholic beverages, advising Harmony on how to pick up men, acting her age for a change. No simpering, no whimpering, no babbling, no childishness, no giggling, in short, no 'Fredisms'. The writers were perfectly capable of writing Fred as a likeable adult, and AA was perfectly capable of playing her that way, proving that poor writing was to blame, not AA's acting abilities.

Another thing that irked me was the descrepancies between what we were constantly told about Fred versus what we where shown. We kept hearing how smart she was, but when she was asked to do research, her first reaction was to whine; we kept hearing how nice she was then we were shown Fred torturing Connor and killing her professor. I'm not saying she wasn't justified both times, but if she truly didn't have a mean bone in her body she wouldn't have done it.

We kept hearing how she was as pure as the driven snow, the perfect symbol of innocence, they showed us Fred shacked up with Gunn for a year, and in Spin The Bottle, we found out that Fred was quite the stoner chick in high school. I would have liked Fred a lot better if she hadn't been designated the Saint of AI.

[brownsbros3]

I guess I didn't see it that way, because I never really saw Fred as a substitute for Cordelia. To me Cordelia was unreplaceable. I saw Fred as her own seperate character. In season five, to me there were four people that they tried to replace Cordelia with Spike, Nina, Eve, and Harmony.

Spike - trade oneliners with Angel
Nina - Angel's love interest
Eve - his connection to the higher power (though in this case it was the Senior Partners instead of the Powers That Be)
Harmony - his girl Friday around the office

[tojoson]

do they say 'chipmonk robots on ice', or 'chipmonk robots are nice'?

[rousedower]

Originally Posted by tojoson

do they say 'chipmonk robots on ice', or 'chipmonk robots are nice'?

I believe it's "on ice".

[Mr.Brightside]

Yea, it is.

[QueenC4707]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Actually, Connor was the Fonz, the motorcycle, the ramp, and the shark all rolled up into one.

This thread seriously cracks me up.

I just wanted to jump in and say, I see I'm not the only one who kind of felt that Fred was taking over Cordy's role. I'm not saying she was the Cordy "replacement" since the characters were totally different, but she did take a lot of screentime in S3 and 4, and while I generally liked Fred I had an issue with the Mary-Sueing of her. I sometimes felt that Fred was becoming the new female lead while Cordy was being thrust into the periphery, particulary since she spent so much of S4 being Jasmine's pawn or comatose. But that could also just be me being bitter.

I'd say he was "bred" because the writers were bored and couldn't think of any other reason to bring their beloved Darla back into the picture and bite Angel on the ass again.

LOL! I must say I agree. Darla should've just stayed gone after her arc in S2 finished. I never did get the "point" of Connor, and when they supposedly explained it in "Inside Out" the whole thing felt sloppy and ill-conceived, like they had written themselves into a corner and were frantically scrambling for a way out. I really do wonder how far the thought process went when creating Connor. "Duuude, wouldn't it be cool if Angel had a kid? Like some magic love child with darla or something?" "Whoa... we haven't done that before... deep."

[JoJo]

I see I'm not the only one who kind of felt that Fred was taking over Cordy's role. I'm not saying she was the Cordy "replacement" since the characters were totally different, but she did take a lot of screentime in S3 and 4, and while I generally liked Fred I had an issue with the Mary-Sueing of her. I sometimes felt that Fred was becoming the new female lead while Cordy was being thrust into the periphery, particulary since she spent so much of S4 being Jasmine's pawn or comatose. But that could also just be me being bitter.

It's not you being bitter. When I watched my minimarathon of 4-5 S3 eps in a row the marginalization of Cordelia really stood out. Each ep had more and more Fred while Cordy's role was whittled away bit by bit.

Darla should've just stayed gone after her arc in S2 finished.

I wish they'd gone with Minear's original idea of having Angel stake Darla. Much as I enjoyed her in S2, her role was finished. Or they could have jettisoned the Pylea arc and had the last few eps featuring a Darla/Angel showdown ending with her getting dusted.

I never did get the "point" of Connor, and when they supposedly explained it in "Inside Out" the whole thing felt sloppy and ill-conceived, like they had written themselves into a corner and were frantically scrambling for a way out.

But, but, Joss is a genius. How can you say that the writers didn't have a clear plan?

Seriously, I think your absolutely right about the thought processes that went into Connor 'The Shark'.

[angdelia]

I wish they'd gone with Minear's original idea of having Angel stake Darla.

God yes! I mean, Angel staking Darla after sex and saying ''Was it good for you?'' How cool is that?

But I'm not sure it would've saved the show though, Whedon would've found something else than Connor to ruin it. Evil little man...

[evil_toady]

Originally Posted by JoJo

I wish they'd gone with Minear's original idea of having Angel stake Darla.

He did stake Darla. In BtVS s1. Bringing her back just so Angel could kill her again would've been pointless, IMO. And I like Connor, but I agree that all the Inside Out pre-planned fate stuff was ridiculous. I honestly don't see why he had to have some sort of epic purpose in the overall story. Why couldn't Connor just be there because he can beat up bad guys and he and Angel have an interesting dynamic?

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by JoJo

I wish they'd gone with Minear's original idea of having Angel stake Darla. Much as I enjoyed her in S2, her role was finished. Or they could have jettisoned the Pylea arc and had the last few eps featuring a Darla/Angel showdown ending with her getting dusted.

I know the Pylea arc was not the original plan, and I *thought* it was supposed to be another Darla arc but when Julie Benz wasn't available they wrote the Pylea crap. I don't know if it would have ended with her dust or if they had planned bringing her back pregnant early. As much as I was over Darla, I wish in hindsight that she would have been available. I hated Pylea and the Groo factor that came with it.

[brownsbros3]

I think instead of planning out logical storylines that made sense, it was the writers trying to see what they could do to top each other. There were different things they did in seasons four and five that were really cool, but in the long run didn't make much sense. Once Greenwalt left, Joss was free to implement is philosophy of not letting a little thing like continuity get in the way of telling a "good" story.

For me, I think it would have made more sense at the end of season three to have some sort of big confrontation involving Angel, Connor, Holtz, and Sahjhan. They spent so much time in season three on that storyline, yet there was never really a payoff to it. I would have had it go down one of two ways:

1.) Connor realizes that Angel is the good guy, and helps him defeat Holtz and Sahjhan.

2.) Holtz find out that Sahjhan really wants to kill Connor, and sacrifices himself to save the boy.

[LaLa247]

Originally Posted by angdelia

God yes! I mean, Angel staking Darla after sex and saying ''Was it good for you?'' How cool is that?

Nah, he did that to Buffy when he was Angelus. Angel would just would've been repeating himself, and we know how he hates doing that.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

I hated Pylea and the Groo factor that came with it.

I don't believe the Pylea arc was that bad. There was some interesting things involved. Such as, seeing Angel turn into something we have never seen him turn into. Also, without the Pylea arc, there would be no Fred. And we don't want that .

[Dannyblue]

I loved Pylea. I remember, when I first came online after season 2, being quite surprised by how many people didn't like the arc, because I enjoyed it a great deal. Now, say what you will about what happened as a result of that arc (like Groo showing up near the end of season 3...although I liked Groo, too, even then) those three eps are a hoot for me.

[TeSjah]

I think Pylea brought both good and bad things with it.

Lorne and his family being one of them. (I mean, who hasn't got the memory of Numfar dancing the dance of joy.) And it showed that Angel started to care more about Cordelia than just his best friend.

The bad things on the other hand were that Cordelia was portaited as a snobby egocentric person, like way back in Sunnydale. After all the trouble the writers had gone through to make her a caring person, it was a little disappointing.

And this depends on your likings of the character, but I really hate Fred. That was the worst thing that came out of Pylea. I think she messed up the great connection the old group had and splitting them in two. Or at least break up Gunn and Wesleys bond. Which was a great one if you saw mid-season 2.

Other issues that I have are with Groo. Not because he dated Cordy (which was way too soon for my taste. They only knew eachother a few days.) but because he was such a flat character. They gave him no layers and presented him to Cordy, it really felt like B/A in it's early days. The thing missing were the 'brilliant' dialoges like "If you kiss me I want to die".

Ok, that's about it.