AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[chatty]

Originally Posted by LordKain

Don't forget they also did it with season 3 as well with Wesley.

Season 3 Wes didn't come across as evil or bad to me. Struggling with making the right decision, absolutely. Not that I agree with what his character did, but I did find his journey compelling. To watch Wesley struggle with such life changing decisions while Angel remained unaware (and therefore helpless) was like watching a car crash. Of course, Wesley had a chance to redeem himself in Season 4, so maybe that's why I feel kinder toward that storyline.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm drawn toward emotional storylines. I can forgive a lot of actions as long as the writers show all the feelings: the drama, the angst, the growth, the forgiveness - those are the reasons why television sucks me in. To have Cordelia be the big bad was not the best idea, but I could have forgiven it if they had used it as an opportunity to explore Cordelia, to show her depths, her strengths, her weaknesses. But to gloss over all of that, throw her into bed with Connor and then drop her into a coma and ignore all the ramifications was just unforgiveable.

For example, I wasn't a huge fan of the demonizing Cordelia storyline, but thought it was an interesting foundation. But what they did with it was unimpressive. Give her a few random powers and that's it? Blah.

Late Season-3 Cordelia had some off spots for me too (although I don't agree she was ditzy) that could have been cleared up with more attention, deeper writing, more thought. I think that's why I resented Fred for sticking around - her storylines took away from Cordelia's character exploration. Although in retrospect, even if Fred hadn't stayed around, ME probably wouldn't have given Cordy the attention I felt she deserved.

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by samsmom

...but meh, I'm still waiting for Penny to unleash The Beast.

I'm workin' on it, I'm workin' on it! I keep getting interrupted!

We've started hitting on a thread that always, always steamed my beans: the typical lack of emotional followthrough for Cordelia. Buffy gets four episodes of blonde angst because she (*sob!*) was treated like an easy piece by a guy she slept with on the first date. Cordy gets violated with demon spawn by a guy she slept with on the third date, and she bounces back like a Weeble (they wobble, but they don't fall down!).

Same with the torture in Pylea (spit). Then again, the writers played the visions for laughs all the way through S2 until they decided WhinyLittleBitch!Angel needed another dramatic thunderbolt to wrestle with. I call bullshit.

[JoJo]

Originally Posted by LordKain

Don't forget they also did it with season 3 as well with Wesley.

What the hell kind of drugs were they taking.

It's kind of funny I thought that Fred and Willow were a couple of the worst characters in both shows along with Andrew as well.

I'll tell you what happened with David Boreanaz later on but I'll just say this it's just as bad as what happened with Charisma as well.



her character was anything but fine shall we go down the list:

Swooning over Lindsey's performance in Cartias in Dead End like a rockstar groupie when this was the same guy who no less then 6 months ago held her very life in the parm of his hands.

Pylea anyone.

Birthday

When Gro came back after WITW epsiode once Gro came back she turned into the same dizy moron she was back in sunnydale.

I pretty much agree with Lord Kain. The show as a whole went off the rails sometime in mid S3, with everyone getting the shaft character-wise. Cordelia was the most ruined, followed by Wesley who went from charming, kind and naive, to creepy jealous stalker/egotistical arrogant loner - thanks a lot Fred!

[samsmom]

The only thing I found wrong with Wesley was his near unapologetic attitude about stealing Connor. He didn't tell anyone what he was doing, sure he was doing the right thing, then got ticked afterwards because no one came to him to ask him why. I found it a bit double-faced, and I struggled to sympathize. I didn't mind the darkness that came after, though I missed bumbling!Wesely, but not because he was lusting after skinny, nutty Fred. That part I didn't get at all.

[LordKain]

Originally Posted by JoJo

I pretty much agree with Lord Kain. The show as a whole went off the rails sometime in mid S3, with everyone getting the shaft character-wise. Cordelia was the most ruined, followed by Wesley who went from charming, kind and naive, to creepy jealous stalker/egotistical arrogant loner - thanks a lot Fred!

I thought that Angel was ruined far more then Wesley ever was as a matter of fact I say his character assasination was just as bad if not worse then Cordy's take a look at the episode Amends then take a look at The Girl In Question how much worse could Angel's character get after that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Penny Century

We've started hitting on a thread that always, always steamed my beans: the typical lack of emotional followthrough for Cordelia. Buffy gets four episodes of blonde angst because she (*sob!*) was treated like an easy piece by a guy she slept with on the first date. Cordy gets violated with demon spawn by a guy she slept with on the third date, and she bounces back like a Weeble (they wobble, but they don't fall down!).

Same with the torture in Pylea (spit). Then again, the writers played the visions for laughs all the way through S2 until they decided WhinyLittleBitch!Angel needed another dramatic thunderbolt to wrestle with. I call bullshit.

Ahhh, the old Wile E. Cordelia. There's a term I hadn't though of in some time. Didn't we have a list of "Huh?" moments as well?

Speaking of, one of my least favorite "Huh?" moments was seeing Cordelia, who'd basically been mindraped through Lindsey's machinations at the end of season one, all but drooling over Lindsey in the club in Dead End. Don't get me wrong, I thought Lindsey was all kinds of hot, but given the fact that he'd basically gloated about killing Cordelia while he was burning that scroll and that Cordy had been in the psych ward after having had all those visions forced into her head, seeing her go all ga-ga over him was a little bit grating.

[Emmangel]

Originally Posted by Angela

Didn't we have a list of "Huh?" moments as well?

One of the sections of TC was 'huh' moments. Only ever got as far as 'Carpe Noctem' though.

[Marcy]

I took advantage of the Amazon.com sale of the Angel dvds and finally got season 2 & 3 (Couldnt bear to buy Season 4, and no way would I ever buy Season 5).

I was watching some of the later eps of Season 2 and once again in "Over the Rainbow" (which by the way the dvd cut the beginning of!), Angel was fuurrreaking out that Cordy was gone and was willing to jump into a portal, any portal to save her. Damn, Angel, what happened to you? Sigh.

Also, watching these eps reminded me of how much I loved the dynamic of Angel, Cordy, Wes & Gunn. It was awesome.
I just still can't believe they all forgot about Cordy like they did. Sigh again.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by samsmom

Truthfully, I wasn't all that thrilled to find out Cordy was going to be the big bad of the season if she hadn't gotten pregnant. Didn't Joss already do that in BtVS s2? And BtVS s6?

Nice originality, ME.

How about Cordelia dealing with being part demon and all the horrible, scary ways her demoness would have manifested? That's one idea. Or spending the season attempting to reach Connor, to save him from Holtz's idea of child-rearing? They could have kept all the Connor angst and NONE of the ConCord squick that still has me retching a little in my mouth when I think about it.

To be able to kick ass in Joss's world, you have to be a scrawny, baby-talking, genius half-nut. If you're a confident, beautiful, self-realized woman who takes no shit and keeps the hero grounded, you're just fodder for the story.

I have no idea how constructive my post is, but meh, I'm still waiting for Penny to unleash The Beast.

WTF Joss always planned for Cordy to be the Big Bad! I never knew that! That makes me So mad.

[JoJo]

Originally Posted by Jaime Bee

WTF Joss always planned for Cordy to be the Big Bad! I never knew that! That makes me So mad.

Yup, Joss was going to have Cordelia turn bad for no apparent reason. Shows what he thought of the character.

But why would he focus on a meaty storyline for Cordelia, she was only an original cast member with a history with all the other characters when he could focus on his latest babbling genius waif.

[DamnSkippy]

Originally Posted by JoJo

Yup, Joss was going to have Cordelia turn bad for no apparent reason. Shows what he thought of the character.

It also shows how unoriginal the guy is. Turning favorite characters bad was what he did. Turn Buffy into a bad girl? Check. Turn Angel bad? Check. Turn Willow bad? Check. Turn Xander into a prick? Check. Turn Wesley into an asshole? Check. Turn Giles into one as well? Turn Gunn? Check.

The only ones who were saved from the whole routine were Doyle (who died too soon) and Fred who was killed and replaced by evil so she technically didn't turn bad. In a way, Cordy was lucky that she was possessed by evil Jasmine instead of getting to turn evil herself. But then again, maybe if they had turned her evil, they would have felt more inclined to write her a redemption story instead of firing her and giving her one episode to finish her "story" off.

[Pythia]

If they had gone with a story about Cordy's new demonyness effectively turning her bad and how the gang fix it, I think I would have enjoyed it. At least knowing that it IS Cordelia and why it's happening would have been a big difference.

[Jaime Bee]

Originally Posted by Pythia

If they had gone with a story about Cordy's new demonyness effectively turning her bad and how the gang fix it, I think I would have enjoyed it. At least knowing that it IS Cordelia and why it's happening would have been a big difference.

That would have been better. I still don't get why he fired her?
Watching early Season 2 on TNT. I love Cordy saying You can't fire me I'm Vision girl and sticking out her tongue at Angel. So cute.

[JoJo]

Originally Posted by samsmom

The only thing I found wrong with Wesley was his near unapologetic attitude about stealing Connor. He didn't tell anyone what he was doing, sure he was doing the right thing, then got ticked afterwards because no one came to him to ask him why. I found it a bit double-faced, and I struggled to sympathize. I didn't mind the darkness that came after, though I missed bumbling!Wesely, but not because he was lusting after skinny, nutty Fred. That part I didn't get at all.

All true, and don't forget that Wesley knew that Holtz's people were going to attack and he didn't warn his 'good friends' and he also thought that Angel would turn evil and again didn't see fit to warn anyone. He didn't try to get the others to help with Connor/prophecy, caused Connor to be sent to a hell-dimension, then he wallowed in self pity because they didn't take his side. I never liked Wesley after that.

[Luna]

They are also repeating season 3 in Germany at the moment, on Monday I saw "That Vision Thing" again.

I also think it was stupid of Wesley that he didn´t tell anyone about the Connor-prophecy. If Connor hadn´t been kidnapped, maybe the whole Jasmine-thing hadn´t happened because Cordy couldn´t have slept with him if he still had been a little child.

If you think further, it would be even Wesleys fault that Cordelia died.