AtS on TNT Discussion Thread

[psychofilly]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

What do you mean, until then it was a lie? Like, the Reign of fire, and who was the master of the Beast?

No, the entire run of ATS and if you follow it to it's logical conclusion, BTVS was one big manipulation by Jasmine to bring about Connor, dupe Cordy to get her up into the higher realms so that Jasmine could mindjack her and bring about herself on earth.
Cordy wasn't chosen because of her self sacrifice or her growth as a person. She was a convienient womb. Angel's relationships were all to bring him to the point where he would sleep with Darla and create Connor. Everything, every choice the characters had ever made was meaningless because (if you believe Skip) it was all scripted so that they would make the choices that they made.

Originally Posted by JoJo

I couldn't agree more! Angel, once again, acted like a completely lazy, selfish bastard, sacrificing his friends in order to take the easy way out instead of dealing with his problems. He went from poverty and powerlessness to wealth and power - some sacrifice on his part.

To me, this was at the core of both Buffy and Angel. To be an effective hero, you had to have power, and in the hands of someone not suited for it, that power corrupted (Willow, Cordy, Xander, Anya). If you were suited for it like Buffy, Angel, and Spike it entitled you to act unillaterally however questionable the outcome was to those around you.

For Whedon those with power were the special ones, the chosen ones. The champions. You either were one, or you had to augment yourself in some way to be one (Demonization, brain upgrades, magic). But for me, the true heroes were the ones without power. The Anne's and Gunn's (pre W&H) The Cordy's, Xanders, Dawn's and Freds who just relied on their wits but stayed in the fight no matter how terrifying it was or how personal the cost.

To me, *those* were the characters with power. No slayers and souled vampires could even touch that kind of bravery no matter how noble or self sacrificing they were. At least they had something, some advantage going into the fight.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by LaLa247

No, that everything from Sunnydale on was controlled and orchestrated by Jasmine. I think.

Whatever. Let's just all agree that the show, when run by Whedon and his clan of Tweedledumbs sucked ass.

I don't think it was from Sunnydale, but from the first episode of Angel.

lol, not exactly. Maybe a few episodes, once in a while.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by psychofilly

Cordy wasn't chosen because of her self sacrifice or her growth as a person. She was a convienient womb.

Im still wondering why, the powers didn't do anything about it. Why was Jasmine there in the first place ?

[Cordy's Bitch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

Im still wondering why, the powers didn't do anything about it. Why was Jasmine there in the first place ?

Jasmine was a Power. She may have even been the one responsible for the visions.

[v120176]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I don't think it was from Sunnydale, but from the first episode of Angel.
.

I forgot you weren't here when we disscuss this. The thing is IF Jasmine wanted to come back to earth and she needed Angel, Cordy, Wes, Doyle and the others in LA to start her plan, what brought them to LA was part of Jasmine's plan too. What if Angel didn't break up with Buffy and he stayed in Sunnydale or if Cordy's dad did pay his taxes and she kept the money? No LA for them and no Jasmine. So, according to the big flaw that was Skip explanation on Inside Out, everything that happened on BTVS was part of the plan too.
Think about it. Think it's like a chain of event: one is missing, the result is not the same. Without B/A no Angelus, no hell, no angst fest, no risk of more Angelus, no Angel leaving, no Angel on LA. And that's just an example. If something was missing, you didn't have them where Jasmine needed them. So, B/A was part of that, Faith as a psycho-slayer and her arc too (if not, no firing for Wes and no LA for him), Cordy breaking up with Xander, Cordy loosing everything, was part too. More, for Jasmine plan, she needed Angelus with a soul, so the curse was part too? Or liam becoming a vamp thanks to Darla was part too?
If nothing of that happened, none of the gang ended in LA. If all their journey on LA was part of the plan what made them be in LA must be a part too. It's logic. As I said, one thing is missing, the result is different. That's why the Bangel didn't like that explanation: they undertood that BTVS events were necesary to make Angel on LA, so the "Angel love for Cordy was a manipulation" is less and less used because they got the response: B/A was part of the plan too.
That and the fact that Skip sold himself to the best offer, so not a guy for trust too much.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but even ME is not to much fond to this explanation. They never talked too much about this, more the writers said the answer to this was Gunn's free will speach.
That part had more flaws than explanations

[tojoson]

Originally Posted by psychofilly

No, the entire run of ATS and if you follow it to it's logical conclusion, BTVS was one big manipulation by Jasmine to bring about Connor, dupe Cordy to get her up into the higher realms so that Jasmine could mindjack her and bring about herself on earth.
Cordy wasn't chosen because of her self sacrifice or her growth as a person. She was a convienient womb. Angel's relationships were all to bring him to the point where he would sleep with Darla and create Connor. Everything, every choice the characters had ever made was meaningless because (if you believe Skip) it was all scripted so that they would make the choices that they made.

actually, if you take it to it's logical conclusion, you have to go a lot further back than Sunnydale,

Angel HAD to be created, so you had to have Darle, and Liam's father and the atitude of his whole family, then to create Darla you had to have The Master, and whoever created him, all the way back to the dawn of time.

you had to have the gypsy's and the gypsy girl who gave Angel the curse, (it wouldn't do if Angel was able to get together with Buffy without the curse, because then he wouldn't be in a position to have Conner).
Buffy had to be created to get Angel to Sunnydale to meet Cordy,
the whole Slayer family had to be created to get to Buffy,
vampires and demons had to be created to get the slayers.

Cordy's parents had to meet, marry, and have Cordy, then be rich, but not pay their taxes so she would be forced to leave and go to LA.

Doyle had to be created to give Cordy the visions.
the Scourge had to be created to force this,
the half-demons they were rescuing had to be created to bring the Scourge to Angel and company

if taken to these conclusions, everything, EVERYTHING that happened in all time was strictly designid to get to the point of Jasmine's birth, and let's not forget, if we didn't have the Earth and the Sun, none of this could take place..

but, if Jasmine was sooo damned smart, and could forsee the future that well, how come she couldn't forsee her death at Conner's hand

my conclesion,
whedon and his writers were stupid to even try and pass this 'gee-whiz' idea off on us

[psychofilly]

What V said. And I liked Gunn's speech. For me that was his shining moment, his epiphany, if you will, which made what came after make no sense for his character.

I am a HUGE proponent of free will, and that the choices we make write our own destiny, not any gods. Not even God interferes with our right to choose.

The problem with Gunn's free will speech and Skips story about how Jasmine manipulated events is that you can't have it both ways. Either the world operates on free will, or the powers (good and bad) can manipulate events that, in effect, control us.

You can't kick over the chessboard, scatter the peices and play your own game if the powers have all the peices in their shiny grabby fists.

So see? there is a logical paradox there and there are only two fixes. One Gunn was wrong and there is no free will and we are all pawns all the time,(which is the point Tojoson just made). Or two, Skip lied. The problem with two is that it means that the entire Fang Gang were too stupid to live because they allowed themselves, no matter how well intentioned, to be turned into pawns.

And much as I hate to say it, if Skip lied and it was the Fg's choices that drove them, then Cordy was nothing more than a dupe who's own hubris and vanity became her downfall and resulted in her physical and mental rape. And again, if she were a pawn, why stay loyal to any system that allows you to be raped while working for them.

Cordy coming back had the potential to be the most explosive and intersting story on ATS. Can you imagine the rage? The hurt? If they wanted to get rid of the kinder and gentler Cordy they created, they wrote themselves a way. But ME would have had to tie up all the loose ends of their story and work with an actress they had labeled difficult.

I guess that might have been a little more than Mutant Enemy could handle.

[jujube1013]

here is my 2 cents, but first a question. In what ep did we find out that jasmine was a ptb? i know she was a god of a different dimension, but that doesn't mean she was a ptb. i didn't watch after ickfest so i don't know when things were said.

and if someone like skip said that she was a ptb,or she did why would we believe her. she could have just wanted to come to this dimension and recruited skip. skip being pissed at angel from tvt, used the thing taht would hurt angel the most ,Cordy, he knew about her.so somehow in b-day, he causes Cordy to blackout,or just uses her dying from a vision to get her, when angel visits the conduits, they say that Cordy is destined to die. skip uses Cordy's love for angel and the mission to get her to demonize herself but it's not her anymore b/c she's dead,but they need her permission to take her body, so jasmine is allowed to get into Cordy's body. the rest is not Cordy. until we see her in the higher realms, not b/c skip sent her but b/c she died in b-day. and then in YW to they send her back to kick angel's ass into gear.

so that's my fanwank, i don't see why we would believe anything jasmine or skip said at all.

if i was a good writer i would put this in a fanfic, or one of our really great writers here could do it.

this way cordy is not a dupe, she just died, and was trying to help angel and the mission as her last thought.


my thoughts on connor and fred are about the same, they were both annoying and not needed.and darla should have stayed dead from when angel killed her in buffy.never liked her at all.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by Cordy's Bitch

Jasmine was a Power. She may have even been the one responsible for the visions.

I never know that, but why would one of the powers want to do that. I thought they were suppose to be good? Jasmine was eating people, just to make mankind all over again. But she was still sacrificing so many innocent people.

[Mr.Brightside]

Originally Posted by v120176

I forgot you weren't here when we disscuss this. The thing is IF Jasmine wanted to come back to earth and she needed Angel, Cordy, Wes, Doyle and the others in LA to start her plan, what brought them to LA was part of Jasmine's plan too. What if Angel didn't break up with Buffy and he stayed in Sunnydale or if Cordy's dad did pay his taxes and she kept the money? No LA for them and no Jasmine. So, according to the big flaw that was Skip explanation on Inside Out, everything that happened on BTVS was part of the plan too.
Think about it. Think it's like a chain of event: one is missing, the result is not the same. Without B/A no Angelus, no hell, no angst fest, no risk of more Angelus, no Angel leaving, no Angel on LA. And that's just an example. If something was missing, you didn't have them where Jasmine needed them. So, B/A was part of that, Faith as a psycho-slayer and her arc too (if not, no firing for Wes and no LA for him), Cordy breaking up with Xander, Cordy loosing everything, was part too. More, for Jasmine plan, she needed Angelus with a soul, so the curse was part too? Or liam becoming a vamp thanks to Darla was part too?
If nothing of that happened, none of the gang ended in LA. If all their journey on LA was part of the plan what made them be in LA must be a part too. It's logic. As I said, one thing is missing, the result is different. That's why the Bangel didn't like that explanation: they undertood that BTVS events were necesary to make Angel on LA, so the "Angel love for Cordy was a manipulation" is less and less used because they got the response: B/A was part of the plan too.
That and the fact that Skip sold himself to the best offer, so not a guy for trust too much.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but even ME is not to much fond to this explanation. They never talked too much about this, more the writers said the answer to this was Gunn's free will speach.
That part had more flaws than explanations

I understand what you mean. Its weird though, that she put them all together in LA, they really didn't make there own desicions. It was all Jasmine, I hated that whole arc because of Jasmine, but now I hate it even more. Since the gang really didn't make there own desicions.

[JoJo]

And again, if she were a pawn, why stay loyal to any system that allows you to be raped while working for them.

You just stated the reason why I suspect that TPTB and the SP's were members of the same group.

At least the Senior Partners rewarded their minions.

[evil_toady]

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I never know that, but why would one of the powers want to do that. I thought they were suppose to be good? Jasmine was eating people, just to make mankind all over again. But she was still sacrificing so many innocent people.

Jasmine was eating people to keep her own power going, so she could help more. Basically, it was for the "greater good" (whatever that means), and, to paraphase, yes, she was killing thousands - to save billions.

[psychofilly]

Originally Posted by JoJo

You just stated the reason why I suspect that TPTB and the SP's were members of the same group.

At least the Senior Partners rewarded their minions.

My own opinion is that the PTBs were Chaos and Order. That's why there was always a struggle but they were never "at war." Neither side wanted a victory because victory meant either destruction or stagnation.

They kept balance while the "battles" were played out in dimensions like Earth and Pylea. Human/Demon struggles, the struggle between good and evil, only acted like pressure valves and kept the balance on a small scale.

Events like Glory and Jasmine and the First threatened to tip the scales and require bigger checks, like Buffy dying/altering the slayer line and Angel taking down the LA branch of W&H and The Circle (and if spoilers for season six were correct) triggering a small apocalypse. Jasmine's apocalypse= an imbalance of order, W&H's apocalypse tips the balance back to chaos. The world goes on.

And Jujube, a lot of folks have questioned weather Skip was telling the truth or not. If he wasn't the question then becomes, If Skip was a known liar, why would Angel and Wes believe him? The only answer would be because they were too stupid to live.

[Penny Century]

Originally Posted by psychofilly

And much as I hate to say it, if Skip lied and it was the Fg's choices that drove them, then Cordy was nothing more than a dupe who's own hubris and vanity became her downfall and resulted in her physical and mental rape.

I think that's overstating the case a bit (and I'd like to point out that I was the first person anywhere to use the H-word in regard to Cordy's ascension, so it's not in reflexive defense). Remember that Skip played very hard to the sense of guilt that drove many of Cordy's decisions. This was the girl who expressly said, in show dialogue, that she thought bad things happened to her because she deserved it -- because she was "making up" for being mean in high school. Skip's tone was almost as explicit; he all but said that Cordy could refuse, but it would just prove that she was a selfish bitch who would never change.

I point this out mostly because Cordy's vibes of desperately trying to pay some sort of karmic debt were almost as pervasive as Angel's, if not as sledgehammer-obvious (and ultimately really, really grating and empty and trite, but then this post isn't about Angel). It's an underexplored part of her character, and the sort of thing Greenie -- who wrote this episode -- was just liable to throw in on purpose.

[QueenC4707]

I read all the posts here and I can honestly say trying to figure out S4 and Skip's explanation makes my head hurt. I think I'll go back to my old approach: Cordy and Angel preetttyyyy... me like.

Ahh, that's better.