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Old 09-02-2005, 12:25 PM   #46
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All I know is that babies appearing on a show are usually a bad, bad sign. And ATS is living proof of that. For me I guess I got thoroughly annoyed at the dropping of the Season Four storyline in Season Five. So, you destroy all of these characters, put them through hell and then you don't know what to do? I know some changes were mandated by the network, but still, I can't help feel that the mind-wipe was the ulitmate shark-jumping moment for me. If you are going to ask me to buy into a storyline for a whole season then don't just do a half-baked job of resolving it.

Because, to be honest, I felt that they could have done interesting things with the characters recovering from the aftermath of season 4 - and that especially goes for Cordelia. Here you have someone who has tremendous faith that what she is doing is worth giving her life for if needs be, who perhaps overreaches herself in believing in her specialness to the TPTB, only to have that faith destroyed as the one of the powers uses her against her friends and the world. She is special, but not in the way that she was told, and sifting through that would have been very interesting for the character. They did a pretty good job with Angel's crisis in season 2 - why couldn't they do the same for her?

I think that in that case adding Spike might have been interesting. Because he also is someone who has been made special by wearing the amulet, only to find out that really that that was not really his salvation.
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Last edited by September; 09-02-2005 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:28 PM   #47
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What September said. Exactly, though I still felt they started undermining Cordy after Birthday. But she can still speak for me any day.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:55 PM   #48
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Totally agree with September. I remember some articules when ATS was renewed and before knowing that Cordy, Connor weren't there, what really all the changes meant, etc... a big part of them pointed Cordy's reaction to what happened as one of the best and most interesting storylines to follow in the new season.

That's why I didn't undertand Cordy's pact with the PTB (changing her life to put Angel on his path)..... if what Skip said was true all was a lie, and if he was lying, still she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing.
Also I hated Wes reaction when he found out the truth about the spell W&H put on all of them... not mentioning Connor's one. Wes was like "ok, I feel a little bad, but well, let's just keep moping over Fred" . And Connor, well, he had those memories and was peachy, not a little of the old resented Connor, not a change in his attittude after finding that his whole life was a lie?

The thing is, besides what happened behind the scenes between CC and JW, I'm not sure that under other circunstances (meaning having both a good relationship) there was going to be too much Cordy on ATS 5. Why? Easy, The WB demanded a light version of the show, no more big plots, no more those depressing arcs, storlines. And Cordy and Connor were a constant reminder of that. Even if they wrote a mindwipe for Cordy, all the viewers were going to remember the Concor and the possession and everything. Probably they must have to put some distance, and make Cordy appear for the first time at the 8 episode or more. Cordelia and Connor were the most affected by the general destruction and darkness that season 4 was. They were the ones with more repercutions. Exactly what the WB didn't want at all. So, besides what really happened behind the scenes in season 4 and the asshole that Joss is, I don't know if there was going to be a regular Cordy or Connor in ATS 5 according to WB demands.

Now the discussion about JW accepting everything that the WB demanded is another thing......
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychofilly
What September said. Exactly, though I still felt they started undermining Cordy after Birthday. But she can still speak for me any day.
Well, in that case I am going to go around ST spreading mad rumours about you! :-)


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That's why I didn't undertand Cordy's pact with the PTB (changing her life to put Angel on his path)..... if what Skip said was true all was a lie, and if he was lying, still she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing
I don't get that either; how on earth would she know this was not another rogue power (they seem to have issues with them, after all)? The WB's demands are interesting to talk about, though the show dug that hole for themselves in Season Four with the endless and almost unremmitting darkness of that season. Whedon is not an ingenue; surely he might have suspected that there would be some payback asked for a season like the one they plotted in four? I'm not suggesting conspiracy or anything of that ilk, BTW. It's just that they had to know that they were backing themselves into a corner with season four, hence the convenient mind-wipe at the end.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:37 PM   #50
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AFAIC, ATS hit nearly every shark jumping category from Dead End on through S3. First, Exit Stage Left: Lindsey, then Moving: Pylea, followed by New Kid In Town: Fred; Hair Care: Cordelia, Death: Darla, Birth: Connor; Puberty: Connor; and They Did It: Fred and Gunn's horrific pancake kisses.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:43 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v120176
she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing.
Cordy misunderstood the vision warning in "Tomorrow", so I don't think the PTB did nothing. However, they were so much more active with Kate in "Epiphany" and explicit with Connor in "Inside Out". And it could be wanked that they released Angel from Hell and later made snow -- or maybe, that could have been Jasmine or The First -- so he could fit his role in any of their respective plans.
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Last edited by Cata; 09-02-2005 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:06 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by September
... I can't help feel that the mind-wipe was the ulitmate shark-jumping moment for me. If you are going to ask me to buy into a storyline for a whole season then don't just do a half-baked job of resolving it.

Because, to be honest, I felt that they could have done interesting things with the characters recovering from the aftermath of season 4 - and that especially goes for Cordelia.
This whole post is so good. Cordy was THE abused party in S4 and yet? They sideline her and plots begin anew. So many untold stories: Cordy's post-traumatic shock - her alienation from the the Fang Gang and Angel. What DO the PTB do when one of their prime assets - Vision Girl for Main Player in the Apocalypse(s) - gets broken as a direct result of their (non) interference? What does a highly motivated woman of charcacter do in her situation? The PTB owed her one? They owed her a lot more than one kiss, I'll tell you that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by September
I think that in that case adding Spike might have been interesting. Because he also is someone who has been made special by wearing the amulet, only to find out that really that that was not really his salvation.
Always loved the idea of Spike and Cordy. Not S/C but more along the lines of Spike annoys Angel, Cordy annoys Spike, Cordy doesn't talk to Angel. (If Spike fell for Fred, then he sure as hell would've fallen for a Cordy broken off from the group and isolated). Spike with his HUGE inferiority complex and Cordy. . . oh it would've been like shooting fish in a barrel for that mouth.
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:04 PM   #53
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I didn't think BTVS was as good after she went to college. Some real low points were Joyce's death, and the lowest Spike raping Buffy. I hated the potentials, and A.S.H. not being a regular anymore. The Spike/Buffy friendship was kind of odd, but you realize they were really trying to replace Angel there, thats why they did it. I also really disliked Angel coming back in the last episode acting like he still was thinking about him and Buffy getting together someday. It was the wrong time because of what had happened in ATS.

I think When the Angel team joined W/H it was the real end to the show as we know it. Everything changed, along with the continuity. Spike joining the cast did'nt ruin the show, but Cordy dying didn't help the already hardly recognizable Angel. Then to top it off, after years of not thinking he could have a relationship after Buffy, finally realizing he was in love with Cordelia, and loosing her, for some strange reason, Angel jumps head first into a relationship with a woman he bearly knows, and Cordelia is forgotton. Oh, and I forgot to mention the ridiculous jealousy with Spike over Buffy who he clearly had moved on from.
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Old 09-02-2005, 08:41 PM   #54
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BtVS - The Body - damn fine television, yes, but too depressingly, disturbingly realistic for a show that was supposed to be about the supernatural acting as metaphor for real life. And the show went from being genre-bending to dull, angsty Party of Five type drama, with extremely jarring bits of "comedy" thrown in on occasion.

AtS - Habeas Corpses - W&H had been the major villain for that last three seasons. Yeah, it seemed to've run its course in s3, but then Lilah decapitated Linwood, and that seemed to me to be the shot-in-the-arm that storyline needed. But then they crapped all over it, and made any menace the firm had earlier on seem insulting because this one-note upstart The Beast destroyed it in one freaking episode.

As for ConCord/Jasmine - I didn't mind this storyline until I discovered this site, but now I'm fine with it again. Like others have said, the problem wasn't ConCord, it's that Cordy was acting so weird and horrible without any explanation, and wasn't given a redemption arc.
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:18 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v120176
And Connor, well, he had those memories and was peachy, not a little of the old resented Connor, not a change in his attittude after finding that his whole life was a lie?
Well again, they didn't want to bring back the old Connor from Season 4. Since most of the fans dislike Connor's character in Season 4. I thought IMO that was a good way to go. But we did see a glimpse of the old Connor. When all the memories came rushing back and when he was fighting San jon (sp).
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:24 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside
Well again, they didn't want to bring back the old Connor from Season 4. Since most of the fans dislike Connor's character in Season 4. I thought IMO that was a good way to go. But we did see a glimpse of the old Connor. When all the memories came rushing back and when he was fighting San jon (sp).
Well, that's the thing, spell or not you must have some continuity. You can't turn a spycho, violent, resented teen into a lovely one because one spell. That's cheap and mediocre. It's like trying to fix a whole in the wall with duct tape. Specially when the spell is broken. We saw Connor going nuts on ATS 4. The SAME PERSON suddenly remembers those things, specially the final talk with Angel about all being lies, and knows that the life he had was a farse and he's peachy?
I know Connor choose to keep his false life like it was the real one, not digging to much on that, but that's what I'm saying: the writers took the easy way. The character we saw and that THEY introduced to us colapsed mostly because he was fooled by all the people. And we must think that now he's ok with a bigger lie than the ones he suffered before and that caused him to snap?
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Old 09-03-2005, 06:02 AM   #57
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Christine: Then to top it off, after years of not thinking he could have a relationship after Buffy, finally realizing he was in love with Cordelia, and loosing her, for some strange reason, Angel jumps head first into a relationship with a woman he bearly knows, and Cordelia is forgotton.
I remember being gobsmacked when I heard about Nina- esp that Wes encouraged it! Giving Eve a bone was bad enough, but this just threw out everything we had ever thought about the curse. I may be wrong, but I always assumed that sex in any form was a big no no for Angel.

I won't even go into how I felt about the ease in which Angel moved on from Cordy's death and his feelings about her. Didn't Fred's death get more reaction, or was that just a rumour?
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Old 09-03-2005, 06:31 AM   #58
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It wasn't about sex it was about perfect happiness .. as in bliss, perfect contentment. But the writers as usually screwed it up by making it look as if Angel has to loose his soul whenever he got laid ... hence the closeups when he *comes* with Darla and DreamCordy.

I always thought he should have been coming close to losing his soul at the end of Provider for example, when he and Cordy are lying in his bed, she is feeding Connor and they both slip into sleep ... content with his child and the women he loves, no apocalypse waiting, his little AI family intact and happy ... now THAT should have emerged Angelus.

For Nina ... he knew he didn't love her and there was too much going on anyways as if he could even come close to loose his soul. It didn't really bother me ... to me he had given up hope on love alltogether. His dialogue with Cordy in YW showed that to me:

CORDELIA: Do you ever wonder... Do you ever think about if we'd met up that night and had a chance to—
ANGEL: All the time.
CORDELIA (looks down): Guess we missed our moment, huh?
ANGEL: Maybe we were meant to. Or maybe people like us just don't get to...have that.


What bothered me most was that we saw everybody mourn for Fred for 2 (!) episodes but never got Cordy mentioned again except from Angel.

Last edited by galathea; 09-03-2005 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:39 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v120176
I know Connor choose to keep his false life like it was the real one, not digging to much on that, but that's what I'm saying: the writers took the easy way. The character we saw and that THEY introduced to us colapsed mostly because he was fooled by all the people. And we must think that now he's ok with a bigger lie than the ones he suffered before and that caused him to snap?
I understand what your saying, and yea it was a bit to easy and peachy. But why would you want to bring back a character, who made everyone's lives harder then they already were. Connor was fooled by the people around, by a bunch a lies. But even with him going to a new family, which was a bigger lie like you said. It made things easier for Connor and also Angel.
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Old 09-03-2005, 11:31 AM   #60
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Galathea: It wasn't about sex it was about perfect happiness .. as in bliss, perfect contentment. But the writers as usually screwed it up by making it look as if Angel has to loose his soul whenever he got laid ...
One minute it was all sex = Angelus, any sex - D/A boink for eg. He may not have lost his soul, but the veiwers were waiting for it- hell, even Angel/Darla were.

So I disagree with 'making it look like...' as far as I could read from years of watching, it was in enough dialogue b/t the characters to be obvious at the time it was more than just that, lol...they changed their own cannon - S5 did an about turn and it was altered to fit in.
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