AtS on TNT Discussion Thread - Page 29

Mr.Brightside · 08-08-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeSjah

And this depends on your likings of the character, but I really hate Fred. That was the worst thing that came out of Pylea. I think she messed up the great connection the old group had and splitting them in two. Or at least break up Gunn and Wesleys bond. Which was a great one if you saw mid-season 2.

I loved Fred from when she came out of Pylea, all the way to Season 5. I thought she was a great character, bringing more brains just to add on to Wesley. But yea, you have a point. Fred breaking up the bond between Wesley and Gunn, was the only bad thing about the Character IMO.

Dannyblue · 08-08-2005, 11:47 AM

Well, I never had a problem with Fred, so I don't resent the arc for bringing her into the picture.

And, while Pylea reverted Cordy to her old shallow self for a little while, I thought it ultimately showed how much she'd grown. Okay, she was dazzled by the thought of being a princess at first. Who wouldn't be? But, in the end, she decided her hard, non-glamorous mission in LA was more important. Even before she knew she was being used as a pawn in an evil scheme, or that her life was in danger, she'd decided to give up what seemed to be a pretty good deal to go back home and continue with the mission. She didn't even take the chance to give up the brain-stomping, ear-bleeding visions, something the old Cordy would've done in a heart-beat.

DamnSkippy · 08-08-2005, 02:02 PM

There were many things I despised about the Pylea arc.

The whole feeling like I was watching Saturday morning cartoons. It was far too fairytale like instead of dark and dangerous.
Cordelia acting like a total jerk to her friends who came to rescue her. They risked their lives without knowing if they'd be able to return and she didn't even say thanks.
Totally ignoring her torture. What happened there? How did she heal so quickly? Why did no one ever mention it again or ask if she was okay after they found out she'd been tortured?
Cordelia acting like a dippy schoolgirl over Groo and not giving a rat's ass where her friends were or if they were safe. Just because she was Princess didn't mean her friends would be safe in a "hell dimension" without her influence. They were just cows so they could be in danger.
Cordelia was willingly going to screw Groo within a short time span (possibly that very night) until she found out she would lose the visions. If that hadn't been a problem, she very well could have decided to stay in Pylea.
She didn't seem concerned at all for the "helpless" in LA who were being killed while she was sitting on her throne. She got got pissed off when they wanted to get out of there fast and get back to the "dimension where she wasn't a Princess."

There are probably a lot more, but that's enough.

Fred wasn't a problem for me until S5 when she became everything to and for everybody. That was ME's fault, not the character's.

brownsbros3 · 08-08-2005, 02:09 PM

I liked the Pylean arc, my only problem with it was that it went too long. I would have cut it down to two maybe three episodes instead of four. Groo just didn't do anything for me. He was too fake.

The only part I didn't like about Fred was breaking up the friendship between Wesley and Gunn. I still give Fred credit for being the only one that seemed to still care about Cordelia during the final five episodes of season four. They four guys (Angel, Wesley, Lorne, and Gunn) seemed content to just leave her behind, while Fred was pushing for them to take her with them.

Mr.Brightside · 08-08-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownsbros3

The only part I didn't like about Fred was breaking up the friendship between Wesley and Gunn. I still give Fred credit for being the only one that seemed to still care about Cordelia during the final five episodes of season four. They four guys (Angel, Wesley, Lorne, and Gunn) seemed content to just leave her behind, while Fred was pushing for them to take her with them.

Same goes for Connor, when they left him behind in "Sacrifice". Fred was telling Angel, we can't just leave him there. Noone, else seem to care about taking him with them.

QueenC4707 · 08-08-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnSkippy

There were many things I despised about the Pylea arc.

The whole feeling like I was watching Saturday morning cartoons. It was far too fairytale like instead of dark and dangerous.
Cordelia acting like a total jerk to her friends who came to rescue her. They risked their lives without knowing if they'd be able to return and she didn't even say thanks.
Totally ignoring her torture. What happened there? How did she heal so quickly? Why did no one ever mention it again or ask if she was okay after they found out she'd been tortured?
Cordelia acting like a dippy schoolgirl over Groo and not giving a rat's ass where her friends were or if they were safe. Just because she was Princess didn't mean her friends would be safe in a "hell dimension" without her influence. They were just cows so they could be in danger.
Cordelia was willingly going to screw Groo within a short time span (possibly that very night) until she found out she would lose the visions. If that hadn't been a problem, she very well could have decided to stay in Pylea.
She didn't seem concerned at all for the "helpless" in LA who were being killed while she was sitting on her throne. She got got pissed off when they wanted to get out of there fast and get back to the "dimension where she wasn't a Princess."

There are probably a lot more, but that's enough.

Fred wasn't a problem for me until S5 when she became everything to and for everybody. That was ME's fault, not the character's.

That pretty much sums up my feelings toward Pylea as well. IMO they should've just done one episode, freed the slaves, never bothered with Groo, and just gotten out of there.

Quote:

I know the Pylea arc was not the original plan, and I *thought* it was supposed to be another Darla arc but when Julie Benz wasn't available they wrote the Pylea crap. I don't know if it would have ended with her dust or if they had planned bringing her back pregnant early. As much as I was over Darla, I wish in hindsight that she would have been available. I hated Pylea and the Groo factor that came with it.

Word. IMO Groo was what I have nicknamed the SPLI (stupid pointless love interest). The SPLI is only summoned when unimaginative writers can't find a better way to keep the OTP apart. The SPLI is typically characterized by an utter lack of personality, interest, or purpose, and is obviously only there to keep the OTP apart. The romance between the main character and the SPLI is typically force-fed and bland, and the majority of the time a discerning viewer can't find any reason why the main character could possibly be attracted the SPLI, and that said main character has to be pretty damn stupid/blind not to see that the other half of the OTP is the one they *really* want.

Yes, I know. I have too many thoughts.

If you ask me, in S3 Groo just Dawson's Creeked up the whole thing, and if I wanted to watch that kind of stuff I'd, well, watch Dawson's Creek.

angdelia · 08-09-2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaLa247

Nah, he did that to Buffy when he was Angelus. Angel would just would've been repeating himself, and we know how he hates doing that.

I've forgot about that.

I still think it would've been better than the whole Connor debacle though. The other writers should've listened to Tim.

JoJo · 08-09-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

That pretty much sums up my feelings toward Pylea as well. IMO they should've just done one episode, freed the slaves, never bothered with Groo, and just gotten out of there.

I've been saying the same thing. The whole gang should have been sucked into Pylea at the end of Belonging; both Groo and the Princess subplots should have been jettisoned, and then they should have gone home. That way we could have had the funny bits (i.g. Numfar's dance of joy, Angel's glee at being able to go in the sun and his horror at the sight of his hair), but eliminated the rest, including Fred.

Quote:

Word. IMO Groo was what I have nicknamed the SPLI (stupid pointless love interest). The SPLI is only summoned when unimaginative writers can't find a better way to keep the OTP apart. The SPLI is typically characterized by an utter lack of personality, interest, or purpose, and is obviously only there to keep the OTP apart. The romance between the main character and the SPLI is typically force-fed and bland, and the majority of the time a discerning viewer can't find any reason why the main character could possibly be attracted the SPLI, and that said main character has to be pretty damn stupid/blind not to see that the other half of the OTP is the one they *really* want.

How true. The sad thing is, there were plenty of potential obstacles to a C/A romance (e.g. the aging factor, the risk of Angel losing his soul), that the writers didn't need to introduce a bland character whose only reason was to mess up the C/A romance.

As for Darla, I would have liked to have seen Lindsey stake her, partly to not have Angel repeat himself.

QueenC4707 · 08-12-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

As for Darla, I would have liked to have seen Lindsey stake her, partly to not have Angel repeat himself.

You know, I hadn't thought of that, but that is a pretty cool idea. If it could've spared us Pylea and Connor, you know I'm all for it.

Mr.Brightside · 08-15-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenC4707

You know, I hadn't thought of that, but that is a pretty cool idea. If it could've spared us Pylea and Connor, you know I'm all for it.

I don't know why, everyone is against Connor. I thought he had a purpose, to see if Angel could become a father. Which we couldn't see because of Holtz takening away Connor. But Connor was actually pretty cool, when he came back from Quor Toth. Angel wasn't the only one with super speed and super strength, which made Connor a cool character IMO. But would be annoying at times.

raregem · 08-15-2005, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I don't know why, everyone is against Connor. I thought he had a purpose, to see if Angel could become a father. Which we couldn't see because of Holtz takening away Connor. But Connor was actually pretty cool, when he came back from Quor Toth. Angel wasn't the only one with super speed and super strength, which made Connor a cool character IMO. But would be annoying at times.

Connor was a character I loved to hate. I'm think they developed him well by the end of the show.

Dannyblue · 08-15-2005, 12:18 PM

I liked Connor as a character. He wasn't a guy I'd probably want to hang out with (pre-mindwipe). But, as a character, I think he was very effective, because he was exactly what he was written to be: a character it was very hard to like, but one I still identified with and felt sympathy for. No matter how much I wanted to smack him, I still felt for him.

psychofilly · 08-15-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Brightside

I don't know why, everyone is against Connor. I thought he had a purpose, to see if Angel could become a father. Which we couldn't see because of Holtz takening away Connor. But Connor was actually pretty cool, when he came back from Quor Toth. Angel wasn't the only one with super speed and super strength, which made Connor a cool character IMO. But would be annoying at times.

I think Connor was another character they wrote into a corner because they kept him so isolated as part of the ConCorde axis of evil. I honestly thought that Cordy should have been shown as being more actively manipulative of their friends while also isolating Connor and the fang gang should have been more openly questioning Cordy's behavior and choices.

Basically, since they never let him grow as a charcter, never let him learn (something that VK complained about himself) he became one note, whiny and hard to like (until the finale when he broke my heart) Then in season five they artificially fixed him, but he was fun to watch and I am glad they at least resolved his storyline somewhat. I really would have liked to see where they went with him having both sets of memories.

The only times I didn't like Connor was in relation to ConCorde and when he was being deliberately boneheaded in season 4.

v120176 · 08-15-2005, 01:13 PM

I agree with that psychofilly.
They have one of the best actors of Joss ever had and probably the character with the potential to be the most complex one of the Buffyverse. And they only made Cry-baby Connor.
Since the beggining we had the doubt about why Connor was there and the discussion about being evil or good. We saw him do things more close to a Darla or Angelus behaviour than Angel's one. We saw someone that was atracted to his father but it was raised to hate him. All of that on ATS 3 in only three episodes. In ATS 4 we saw a whiny, one-dimension character, blaming Angel for everything. The love/hate relationship between Connor and Angel was reduced to Connor blaming Angel, being fooled by everyone (Connor was a real idiot sometimes) and Angel saying "he's confused".

Until the end. Until THAT scene in Home. Imagine that approach to the character during the whole season?. They really screwed up what it could be a great character. And they didn't have the balls to make him bad either, because, after all, he was the hero's son. Connor became a hybrid.... a very annoying, whiny one.
If I have to choose something that I liked from Connor, it would be Connor season 3 because Greenwalt showed a character with a lot of potential and the Connor from Home. Only that, because in season 5, again they went with the easy way: peachy Connor. And when the spell was broken, he didn't went nuts for all the memories coming back or anything. He was still peachy......

Mr.Brightside · 08-15-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychofilly

Basically, since they never let him grow as a charcter, never let him learn (something that VK complained about himself) he became one note, whiny and hard to like (until the finale when he broke my heart) Then in season five they artificially fixed him, but he was fun to watch and I am glad they at least resolved his storyline somewhat. I really would have liked to see where they went with him having both sets of memories.

The only times I didn't like Connor was in relation to ConCorde and when he was being deliberately boneheaded in season 4.

I agree Psychofilly, I hated how (Evil) Cordy tried to turn Connor against everyone, I think that was one of the reasons why Connor wanted to kill himself in "Home". He had nothing to lose, now that Cordy left him and Jasmine was dead. That episode was so sad because Angel couldn't help his son from not killing himself. But, Angel was unselfish and put his son into new Home and Family. One of the reasons why I like Angel so much.

08-08-2005, 11:47 AM	#422
Dannyblue a.k.a. Danielle Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,147	Well, I never had a problem with Fred, so I don't resent the arc for bringing her into the picture. And, while Pylea reverted Cordy to her old shallow self for a little while, I thought it ultimately showed how much she'd grown. Okay, she was dazzled by the thought of being a princess at first. Who wouldn't be? But, in the end, she decided her hard, non-glamorous mission in LA was more important. Even before she knew she was being used as a pawn in an evil scheme, or that her life was in danger, she'd decided to give up what seemed to be a pretty good deal to go back home and continue with the mission. She didn't even take the chance to give up the brain-stomping, ear-bleeding visions, something the old Cordy would've done in a heart-beat. __________________ IMAGIC. My LiveJournal, where you'll find my fanfiction, fanart, etc.

08-08-2005, 02:02 PM	#423
DamnSkippy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 4,895	There were many things I despised about the Pylea arc. The whole feeling like I was watching Saturday morning cartoons. It was far too fairytale like instead of dark and dangerous. Cordelia acting like a total jerk to her friends who came to rescue her. They risked their lives without knowing if they'd be able to return and she didn't even say thanks. Totally ignoring her torture. What happened there? How did she heal so quickly? Why did no one ever mention it again or ask if she was okay after they found out she'd been tortured? Cordelia acting like a dippy schoolgirl over Groo and not giving a rat's ass where her friends were or if they were safe. Just because she was Princess didn't mean her friends would be safe in a "hell dimension" without her influence. They were just cows so they could be in danger. Cordelia was willingly going to screw Groo within a short time span (possibly that very night) until she found out she would lose the visions. If that hadn't been a problem, she very well could have decided to stay in Pylea. She didn't seem concerned at all for the "helpless" in LA who were being killed while she was sitting on her throne. She got got pissed off when they wanted to get out of there fast and get back to the "dimension where she wasn't a Princess." There are probably a lot more, but that's enough. Fred wasn't a problem for me until S5 when she became everything to and for everybody. That was ME's fault, not the character's. __________________ Deb ~ Bark/Angel Chipper/Shipper C/A Stillness - Non-Animated Icon Challenge Community devoted to Cordy and Angel David Stillness - Non-animated Icon Challenge Community for David Boreanaz Bones Hush - Textless Icon Challenge Community for the show Bones Nonna Rosina Productions Last edited by DamnSkippy; 08-08-2005 at 03:14 PM.

08-15-2005, 12:18 PM	#432
Dannyblue a.k.a. Danielle Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,147	I liked Connor as a character. He wasn't a guy I'd probably want to hang out with (pre-mindwipe). But, as a character, I think he was very effective, because he was exactly what he was written to be: a character it was very hard to like, but one I still identified with and felt sympathy for. No matter how much I wanted to smack him, I still felt for him. __________________ IMAGIC. My LiveJournal, where you'll find my fanfiction, fanart, etc.

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08-08-2005, 02:09 PM	#424
brownsbros3 Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,145	I liked the Pylean arc, my only problem with it was that it went too long. I would have cut it down to two maybe three episodes instead of four. Groo just didn't do anything for me. He was too fake. The only part I didn't like about Fred was breaking up the friendship between Wesley and Gunn. I still give Fred credit for being the only one that seemed to still care about Cordelia during the final five episodes of season four. They four guys (Angel, Wesley, Lorne, and Gunn) seemed content to just leave her behind, while Fred was pushing for them to take her with them.

08-15-2005, 01:13 PM	#434
v120176 Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,684	I agree with that psychofilly. They have one of the best actors of Joss ever had and probably the character with the potential to be the most complex one of the Buffyverse. And they only made Cry-baby Connor. Since the beggining we had the doubt about why Connor was there and the discussion about being evil or good. We saw him do things more close to a Darla or Angelus behaviour than Angel's one. We saw someone that was atracted to his father but it was raised to hate him. All of that on ATS 3 in only three episodes. In ATS 4 we saw a whiny, one-dimension character, blaming Angel for everything. The love/hate relationship between Connor and Angel was reduced to Connor blaming Angel, being fooled by everyone (Connor was a real idiot sometimes) and Angel saying "he's confused". Until the end. Until THAT scene in Home. Imagine that approach to the character during the whole season?. They really screwed up what it could be a great character. And they didn't have the balls to make him bad either, because, after all, he was the hero's son. Connor became a hybrid.... a very annoying, whiny one. If I have to choose something that I liked from Connor, it would be Connor season 3 because Greenwalt showed a character with a lot of potential and the Connor from Home. Only that, because in season 5, again they went with the easy way: peachy Connor. And when the spell was broken, he didn't went nuts for all the memories coming back or anything. He was still peachy......