ATS and BTVS Jumping the Shark [Archive]

brownsbros3

08-28-2005, 09:37 PM

www.jumptheshark.com has listings on BTVS and ATS (along with practically every show ever thought of). The website allows fans to vote on when a TV show jumped the shark. For those of you that may be unfamiliar with the term "jumping the shark" is when a TV show has reached its peak, and then starts its downhill slide.

For Angel, the top 10 responses thus far are:
1.) Never Jumped
2.) Doyle's Death
3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor)
4.) Connor's birth
5.) Darla is pregnant
6.) Angel is a puppet
7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart
8.) Death (Darla to save the baby)
9.) Day One
10.) Death (Cordelia)

For Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the top 10 responses thus far are:
1.) Never Jumped
2.) Tara's Death
3.) Once More With Feeling
4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn)
5.) Graduation
6.) Riley and the Initiative
7.) Willow becomes gay
8.) Day One
9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike)
10.) Death (Buffy)

k8316

08-28-2005, 10:03 PM

I think if Doyle's death was when Angel jumped the shark it really is a shame they made four and a half more seasons. :rolleyes:

rousedower

08-28-2005, 10:05 PM

You've posted this before.

Mr.Brightside

08-29-2005, 09:37 AM

I can't believe number 8 was Death (Darla to save the baby). What was so bad about that?

brownsbros3

08-29-2005, 09:49 AM

Somebody else may have. I didn't even know about the jumptheshark.com website until 5 days ago.

My take on each one of these for ATS:
1.) Never Jumped - Well I wouldn't say that. You look at the first three seasons vs. the last two, and it's clear that something went horribly wrong along the way.

2.) Doyle's Death - For me that was a little too soon to say that it jumped the shark. It took a few episodes, but I think after Doyle's death the show did get better for a while.

3.) They Did It (Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor) - This was what I voted. This was the worst thing I've ever seen in nearly 30 years of watching television.

4.) Connor's birth - The birth didn't really bother me. I thought there were many ways they could have dealt with it. They of course screwed it up. But the four episodes that aired right after it were good, and two of them (Birthday and Waiting in the Wings) I'd consider among the series best ever.

5.) Darla is pregnant - It's too bad they couldn't have saved the storyline for season four, and have Angel knock Cordelia up instead. We first found out that Darla was pregnant at the end of Heartthrob. Heartthrob was the first episode that barred the crossovers, which was one of the reasons I liked season three the best.

6.) Angel is a puppet - A cheesy moment in season five. In my view, Angel had jumped long before that happened.

7.) Everyone joins Wolfram and Hart - I could understand why some voted on that. In hindsight, it was icing on the sawdust cake that was season four.

8.) Death (Darla to save the baby) - See #4

9.) Day One - That was really too harsh. I read through some of the responses over there and apparently there were some folks that didn't think too highly of David or Charisma.

10.) Death (Cordelia) - It was definitely a memorable moment. I think the episodes for season five improved after her death, but the overall damage was still done way before this happened.

My take on the BTVS responses:
My personal choice wasn't in the top 10. I would have chosen They Did It (Buffy and Parker). It was what started her slide into nympho Buffy.

1.) Never Jumped - I think it actually jumped twice. To me it jumped in season four, got back in season five, but then jumped again in seasons 6-7.

2.) Tara's Death - Definitely a tearjerking moment, but I think it actually saved season six from going down as the worst season of BTVS ever.

3.) Once More With Feeling - Personally, I never saw the fascination with episode. For me, BTVS jumped a second time in season six when Buffy revealed to Spike that Willow's spell brought her back after she had went to Heaven following death #2.

4.) New Kid in Town (Dawn) - I didn't really care for the storyline, but I thought Michelle Trachtenberg held her own with the established characters, so I can't say it jumped there.

5.) Graduation - It was definitely a turning point in the series. It was the last episode with Angel and Cordelia as full time cast members. I could see why some would have picked that, because the first three seasons were hard to top.

6.) Riley and the Initiative - I thought that was one of the more interesting things about season four.

7.) Willow becomes gay - I didn't the way it was handled, but it didn't kill the show for me.

8.) Day One - Welcome to the Hellmouth was an awesome beginning to the series. But like with Angel, I don't think one episode is enough to say a show has jumped.

9.) They did it (Buffy and Spike) - One of the many lowlights for me in season six, but that year had been on a downward spiral way before this happened.

10.) Death (Buffy) - Had they cut the series off here with Buffy's swan dive, I would have been more inclined towards saying the show never jumped.

raregem

08-29-2005, 10:43 AM

ATS: When Spike joined
Buffy: After highschool it just got worse and worse

Mr.Brightside

08-29-2005, 10:48 AM

ATS: When Spike joined
Buffy: After highschool it just got worse and worse

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike :rolleyes:. But everyone has there opinions.

v120176

08-29-2005, 10:57 AM

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike :rolleyes:. But everyone has there opinions.

I think they jumped before Spike, but it was like the last straw, the point of no return.
Even in ATS 4, even with the destruction of all the characters (not only Cordy), you could see something that reminded you ATS. Even if it was just a veeeeeeryyy little thing. Spike coming and what that meant: bringing BTVS to ATS, made the show loose the last vestige of the old ATS. Even if it was minimun, when Spike came, it went away. Maybe what left was the hope of recovering what ATS was in seasons 1 to 3. Introducing storylines that didn't belong to the show or were ended long time ago and forcing the viewers to care for characters that maybe only knew by name it was the lst straw. Don't forget that according to WB only a 30% of BTVS fans watched ATS, but according to the ratings and the official raking of tv shows for that year, ATS and BTVS had almost the same rating, so it worked both ways: only 30% of ATs fans watched BTVS (that's pure logic), so for a lot of people Buffy, Giles, B/A/S, Xander, Andrew, etc meant nothing and couldn't care less for them.... and they based the whole season in the promise of Buffy coming to town....

Mr.Brightside

08-29-2005, 11:08 AM

I think they jumped before Spike, but it was like the last straw, the point of no return.
Even in ATS 4, even with the destruction of all the characters (not only Cordy), you could see something that reminded you ATS. Even if it was just a veeeeeeryyy little thing. Spike coming and what that meant: bringing BTVS to ATS, made the show loose the last vestige of the old ATS. Even if it was minimun, when Spike came, it went away. Maybe what left was the hope of recovering what ATS was in seasons 1 to 3.

That's true, the thing that reminded you of the old ATS in Season 4. Was that they were doing the usual. Cracking down on the books and trying to figure out how to kill a demon or demons. When they went to Wolframhart, everything seem to be easy for them IMO. The only thing that was frustrating the Characters was all the work they had to do, for Wolframhart. So everything change once they step through the doors of Wolframhart.

psychofilly

08-29-2005, 11:08 AM

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel. I don't know what was so bad about that, everyone loves Spike :rolleyes:. But everyone has there opinions.

Were you being sarcastic? If not, that's a pretty naieve opinion. A lot of people couldn't stand Spike. I loved his character, personally, but I know of a lot of people that thought Spike and Spuffy ruined Buffy.

For me Buffy jumped when she came back in season six. In hidsight, Angel jumped at Birthday, though at the time I would have said the last two minutes of Apocalypse Nowish.

Mr.Brightside

08-29-2005, 11:13 AM

Were you being sarcastic? If not, that's a pretty naieve opinion. A lot of people couldn't stand Spike. I loved his character, personally, but I know of a lot of people that thought Spike and Spuffy ruined Buffy.

I was being sarcastic, there were alot of people who couldn't stand Spike. When he made a attempt to try and rape Buffy, forgot what episode. Alot of people started to hate his character. But, Spike was one of my favorite characters.

DamnSkippy

08-29-2005, 11:40 AM

As far as jumping the shark goes, I'd say:

Ats: Darla pregnant.
Btvs: Buffy returns from the dead.

As far as it being too late to turn back and recapture the glory days, I'd say:

Ats: The gang joins W&H (even after ConCor, there could have been a wonderful redemption story that would have been dark and angsty and wonderfully old school, but they crapped on it).
Btvs: Spike gets a soul (if they had dechipped him and returned him to his evil self, the dynamic on the show could have been recaptured and Buffy could have regained some self respect and control again. Along with this is the break-up of the core gang and the entrance of the potentials that wouldn't die.)

TeSjah

08-29-2005, 12:10 PM

BtVs: Mid-Season 4. Everyone changed. Willow turned gay. Everyone picks on Xander. Willow turned gay. Buffy's new it's-all-about-me-attitude. Uncool Giles. Willow turned gay. Uncool villian. Willow turned gay.

Angel: (You are all *so* going to kill me.) It went downhill after Home.

galathea

08-29-2005, 12:44 PM

I would go with ConCor too, but then everytime I realize when I am in the middle of S5 that S4 at least had the advantage of *feeling* like Angel. The dark sets, the Hyperion, the full cast (Cordelia, even when evil better than no Cordelia at all, Lilah and Connor, yeah I liked him). And as DamnSkippy already stated if they had a real redemption story in S5 for the characters I wouldn't have been happy about ConCor but would at least be more forgving.

So in the end it would be the joining of W&H .. though I found that story arc intriguing at first thought.

DamnSkippy

08-29-2005, 01:29 PM

so in the end it would be the joining of W&H .. though I found that story arc intriguing at first thought.

That's why second and third thoughts are generally a good idea. ;)

psychofilly

08-29-2005, 01:40 PM

raregem

08-29-2005, 05:09 PM

Spike joined, to bring more viewers who watch Buffy over to see Angel.

I know but I didn't enjoy the show when he joined.

galathea

08-29-2005, 06:13 PM

Exactly, if we had gotten a real payoff for Cordelia's "evil" arc, then today I might not have had much problem with it, even though AN was one of the few episodes ever that made me so <strike>ill</strike> mad that I had to walk away from the TV set and go calm down.

Same here. I was feeling sick after that last 2 minutes. I needed to stop watching the show for some days.

Remember the surround sound visions, Cordy missing signifigant clues about her friends behavior? I thought they were trying to show that Cordy was breaking with reality, possibly going to be driven insane a la Birthday!Angel. Turns out it meant nothing. After Inside Out, it turns out whole chunks of continuity and plot meant nothing.

Uhm what do you mean here? Where did she miss clues about which friends behaviour? Are you talking S3 or 4?

When I really thought about it and went back, Birthday and the episodes following it is when they really broke the contract with us, the audience. Where there good episodes after that? Sure, all through four and five there were some great episodes mixed in with the duds. But on the whole, it never reached the greatness of what came before.

Actually I really love the S3 story after Birthday. The Wes-Angel-Holtz-Connor Story arc had a tremendous emotional impact on me. To lose his only child over the betrayal of a trusted friend is the most horrible event imaginable. On the other hand said trusted friend sacrifices everything thats important to him, to do what he thinks protects his best friend and the child, only to find himself bleeding to death and isolated from the people he loves. My heart just broke for both of them. Sleep Tight, Forgiving, A New World and Benediction are some of the best episodes in that season imho.

v120176

08-29-2005, 06:26 PM

Uhm what do you mean here? Where did she miss clues about which friends behaviour? Are you talking S3 or 4?
.

Do you remember when she had the vision that Angel and Connor went to fight together in ATS 3? Well, she had a total vision (like a 3D one) of the place and didn't see Wes and Lilah. That could be not that serious and could be justificated. But after that she said to Angel that she saw him and Connor playing and laughting after the fight. She said something like "I don't know why or how but the powers let me be inside that vision again." What she really miss was Holtz watching them and probably the reason for that new vision, that was easy to see if you have again a 3D vision.
The same when she had that vision in Tomorrow, after Groo's departure when she sees herself, with her white dress and thinks it's hint about loving Angel, when really (if you see the episode again) what Astral Cordy says is exactly what she says to Skip after that. It was a warning (even Minear says that).
So she missed or failed to see Wes, Lilah there (and that the girl was Justine), Holtz watching Angel and Connor, and not understanding what the vision about herself was.

galathea

08-29-2005, 06:48 PM

CordyAngelSeer

08-29-2005, 07:23 PM

BTVS I would say jumped the shark after season 3. from what I've heard season 4 was blah with the Initiave storyline and the suddenly Willow is gay thing. Plus I heard season 5 was also pretty blah was the whole guess what Buffy has a sister.

ATS, contrary to popular opinion I really liked season 4, and would have loved a resolution in season 5 big Angel/Cordy love, but season 5 I think jumped the shark with the loss of CC & Cordy, and season 4 I supposed because of the lack of non coma Cordy towards the end of 4.

psychofilly

08-29-2005, 08:57 PM

Oh okay ... I see where you are heading now. I am shocked that this fact eluded me lol. I guess I just assumed that the visions weren't that exact .. and Holtz, Lilah and Wes weren't exactley in line of vision and Cordy didn't know Justine, except someone would have shown her a photo. But I see now that it can be taken as a hint that the powers were even betraying her then or that she missed important clues the powers sended her.

Well sure, you could look at it this way, but essentially Cordy's visions changed signifigantly and the fact that she missed things was never brought up later when it became obvious that she was missing clues.

About the Cordy talking to herself scene: I always had the theory that this particularly vision was send to her by the powers to be (mis)interpreted exactley as she did to give her a strong reason (the realisation of her love for Angel) NOT to fall for the ascension gig Skip is offering her. But unfortunately it didn't work /sigh.

And this shows a pattern of behavior, decisions made on shakey logic. Since when has a vision been a reward? They have always been a warning, and yet twice in a week, she suddenly "assumes" they are a reward/something good? It doesn't pass the logic test.

But anyways that still doesn't explain that she missed clues in her friends behaviour but only that she might have missed clues in her visions. :)

She completely missed that Fred was attracted to Gunn, and pushed Wes, making him think that Fred liked him, which set him up for cruel rejection, which helped to isolate him. I can't remember the specifics, but she completely missed something going on with Gunn, giving him advice what was it... didn't he try and break up with Fred because of something Cordy said. Point is, she was supposed to be observant, and her judgement went off the deep end because she was comprimised or distracted (or both) and no one else seemed to notice.

While I think there were some totally powerfull kick ass episodes and mini-arcs after Birthday, the ones you mentioned and at times in season 4 & 5, the story overall never held up for me. Just because I felt for Angel's situation, and was totally rivited to several episodes, the Holtz resolution, the ascension, Cordy's and Angel's almost pathological denial... then the execution of season four with the fact that W&H were able to corrupt everybody? From Birthday on (for me) it was never as satisfying as it was before.

DamnSkippy

08-29-2005, 10:39 PM

She completely missed that Fred was attracted to Gunn, and pushed Wes, making him think that Fred liked him, which set him up for cruel rejection, which helped to isolate him. I can't remember the specifics, but she completely missed something going on with Gunn, giving him advice what was it... didn't he try and break up with Fred because of something Cordy said.

Cordy mistook Gunn's depression as him feeling guilty for being happy with Fred while everyone else was miserable. She told him to make the most of every day because you never know when it will be your last. He took that as advice to show Fred the best day of her life and his, but I don't think he planned to break up with her until that moment he did it.

Point is, she was supposed to be observant, and her judgement went off the deep end because she was comprimised or distracted (or both) and no one else seemed to notice.

I'd have to put her cluelessness about Angel's feelings in that category, especially once Groo showed up. How much more more like kicked, jealous puppy could he look? Especially when he gave her the money and told her to go...if she couldn't read his feelings in his eyes right then, she had to be possessed.

Has anyone written a fic where Groo was sent by Jasmine to get Cordy out of the picture so Connor could be kidnapped and get him into another dimension for his growth spurt? I know I've read fics where Groo turns out evil later, but none where he was part of the plan to begin with.

galathea

08-30-2005, 03:21 AM

I see your points. I have never given the change of the visions so much thought I admit.

On some points though I wouldn't lay blame to Cordys feet. Even fair Cordelia isn't perfect. Missing Gunns attraction to Fres for example. While Wes confided with her about his feelings Gunn kept it more to himself. And Gunn tried to break up with Fred in Double or Nothing to protect her from Jenoff, the SoulSucker, not because of something Cordy said.

The thing that bugs me a lot more than Cordy being less observant in the 2nd half of S3 is that Angel actually BELIEVED Cordelia would sleep with Connor. While one would easily be able to miss Cordys slightly changed accuracy towards the visions in S3, I never got why nobody of team AI got a clue about Cordy not being Cordy in S4. That made absolutely no sense to me. The same goes for everybody joining W&H in a heartbeat in Home.

brownsbros3

08-31-2005, 09:15 PM

I think that instance he was too shocked at what he saw to think rationally. If I was a singled dad, got remarried, and then came home to find my teenage son having sex with my new wife, I wouldn't be very rational in that situation. I probably wouldn't even think to call Jerry Springer and cash in.

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.

As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared.

raregem

08-31-2005, 10:29 PM

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.

She was going to turn evil for no reason?

DamnSkippy

08-31-2005, 11:02 PM

She was going to turn evil for no reason?

They never explained what the reason would be (I don't think at the time they had figured that part out), but there would have been a reason. The did say it would have been Cordelia being evil and not a possession. Perhaps the part demon half of her (I guess that would technically still be "Cordelia") would finally manifest as something evil. We'll never know now.

Dimitri

08-31-2005, 11:02 PM

She was going to turn evil for no reason?
Well, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

LaLa247

08-31-2005, 11:04 PM

Well, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
What the hell are you talking about? :eyebrow:

Dimitri

08-31-2005, 11:20 PM

What the hell are you talking about? :eyebrow:
Gah, I have to do the long(er) version?

QueenC4707

09-02-2005, 03:16 AM

The scary thing is that originally there was not going to be a Jasmine character, they were just going to have Cordelia turn evil.
You know, I just finished re-watching Buffy S6 after rewatching it all the way thru on DVDs from S1 (got the family hooked :/). The more I rewatch the later seasons of BtVS and AtS the more I realize how impossible it must've been for writers to have any remotely original ideas. How many redemption plots can they do already? How many "good guy goes evil" plots? I bag on shows a lot for ripping off other shows, but ripping off yourself (more than once!) reaches a whole new level of sad.

As far as Spike goes, I didn't have a problem with him being added to the cast. My problem was them getting rid of Cordelia, and then focusing so many episodes of season five on Buffy, who never appeared.
Word. I was having an interesting convo with my friend, who, while he enjoys the character of Spike, felt that having him come on Angel in the 5th season kind of cheapened his redemption. Which I also agree with, to an extent. As much as I love Spike, I didn't really see him "fitting" as a regular on AtS (although I have no objection to Xover appearances like "In the Dark.") By writing off Cordy, a key character and the only original cast member left other than Angel, migration of two Buffy characters (Spike and Harmony), and starting up again with the Xovers, I can see why some fans referred to S5 as "Buffy lite."

Gabriella

09-02-2005, 04:15 AM

For me Buffy jumped when she came back in season six. In hidsight, Angel jumped at Birthday, though at the time I would have said the last two minutes of Apocalypse Nowish.
Agreed. Cordy - as much as I did, do and always will love her was never *exactly* the same again, until maybe YW. As for Buffy, the poor thing was ripped out of heaven. Yeesh. It just went downhill from there.

silveragent

09-02-2005, 05:06 AM

QueenC -- there were many ideas the writers could have pursued on both shows had they not constantly robbed prior seasons and been willing to explore human aspects of their characters. The problem was they were stuck in the same creative rut: Joss mandated they copy "go evil and get redeemed" over and over again.

califi

09-02-2005, 09:37 AM

AtS- Darla pregnant.

BtVS - difficult. Stopped watching it thru S4, but enjoyed a lot of S5, so although I found the odd ep I did see of S4 imo crap, glad S5 was around...so after the Gift, I'd say.

Mr.Brightside

09-02-2005, 10:28 AM

DamnSkippy

09-02-2005, 10:42 AM

Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor.

Well, no. She *only* cared *because* she shared a soul with Connor. She knew she'd kill the kid the moment she lost that soul connection.

califi

09-02-2005, 10:46 AM

Darla's pregnancy IMO, wasn't jumping the Shark. I thought it just showed, how much Darla cared. She never cared about anything, but it showed she could, besides the fact that she was sharing a soul with Connor.

I meant the fact she came back pregnant in the first place. Crap arc. With a character like Darla, they could have gone with any other arc and it would have been great - As I've said on countless occasions, AtS, imo was not a place for kids of any kind (unless as a saved victim ;) ) To me, when Darla and her bun came in the door, that was the beginning of the end.

Mr.Brightside

09-02-2005, 10:53 AM

Well, no. She *only* cared *because* she shared a soul with Connor. She knew she'd kill the kid the moment she lost that soul connection.

I know, but it was actually great seeing Darla care for something. She never did in the past.

Mr.Brightside

09-02-2005, 10:57 AM

I meant the fact she came back pregnant in the first place. Crap arc. With a character like Darla, they could have gone with any other arc and it would have been great - As I've said on countless occasions, AtS, imo was not a place for kids of any kind (unless as a saved victim ;) ) To me, when Darla and her bun came in the door, that was the beginning of the end.

Well, I thought it would be interesting to find out what was really in Darla. Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla ;). But, when we found out that it was human. I know everyone said it was the end. But, what I don't understand. What is Connor? We all know he has some Demon in him.

psychofilly

09-02-2005, 11:01 AM

Well, I thought it would be interesting to find out what was really in Darla. Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla ;). But, when we found out that it was human. I know everyone said it was the end. But, what I don't understand. What is Connor? We all know he has some Demon in him.

So basically Angel and Darla created the first Male Slayer, and maybe, just maybe if they had explored that aspect, I might have been interested. I'm not one of those that had a problem with Darla getting pregnant. I thought it was compelling, but Connor was mishandled to the point that they had to kill him off to make him a bearable character.

And telling everyone here what they were interested in... not the best idea. You don't really know what other folks are thinking. :iamsmilin

rolandro

09-02-2005, 11:10 AM

Well, it was more like a bunch of sharks - one that ends in that slo-mo crash like they used to show Eval Keneval making as he missed the ramp on his motorcycle after jumping a bunch of school buses - just broken legs, pelvis, spine. To let the preeminent summer upper, Cordelia Chase call it, it resulted in "Mystical comas. You know, if you can stand the horror of a higher power hijacking your mind and body so it can give birth to itself? Really recommend em!" Because that was the point, apparently, of Darla's pregnancy. The point, if you read between the lines of what Skip says in S5, is that it took eons of planning by Jasmine to put together the exact crew of basically good guys with the heart, brains, mystical connections (right down to the blood type), fighting skill and motivation to kill her.

My take on all those intersecting lines of chance bullshit.

Mr.Brightside

09-02-2005, 11:18 AM

So basically Angel and Darla created the first Male Slayer, and maybe, just maybe if they had explored that aspect, I might have been interested. I'm not one of those that had a problem with Darla getting pregnant. I thought it was compelling, but Connor was mishandled to the point that they had to kill him off to make him a bearable character.

And telling everyone here what they were interested in... not the best idea. You don't really know what other folks are thinking. :iamsmilin

Yea, I agree Connor was mishandled. I thought he was a Character that could be explored at the end of Season 3. But they kept making him annoying at times, so you couldn't like his character at all.

If you read my post again, I was directly saying everyone here is interested. Sorry if it sound like it did :(.

psychofilly

09-02-2005, 11:35 AM

Because that was the point ,apparently, of Darla's pregnancy. The point, if you read between the lines of what Skip says in S5, is that it took eons of planning by Jasmine to put together the exact crew of basically good guys with the heart, brains, mystical connections (right down to the blood type), fighting skill and motivation to kill her.

My take on all those intersecting lines of chance bullshit.
Heh, I never really thought of it that way, but it is kind of funny that a being with the wherewithall and foresite to manipulate this group into a position to give birth to her, she'd be able to predict they'd turn on her too. A smart god would have killed off the FG, because they were the only ones in a position to figure out the Connor/Cordy blood connection.

I guess my problem with the show as a whole is that I'd rather have seen a crew that outwitted their opponents instead of constantly being bailed out by blind luck or heavenly intervention. There was a time when Angel was smart and they showed it, where Cordy was a good observer and quick on her feet, and Wes wouldn't have wallowed in self pity.

And in the end, while I liked the idea of taking down the Circle of the Black Thorne and Angel playing a shadow game with W&H the whole time, that wasn't set up in the episodes until the very end when they basically said, "Surprise, this is what's been happening off screen!"

rolandro

09-02-2005, 11:59 AM

I guess my problem with the show as a whole is that I'd rather have seen a crew that outwitted their opponents instead of constantly being bailed out by blind luck or heavenly intervention. There was a time when Angel was smart and they showed it, where Cordy was a good observer and quick on her feet, and Wes wouldn't have wallowed in self pity.

Which is why I love Wes' Judas turn in S3 - it came from character and a twist on the whole 'ancient scroll' routine they used. It hurt to watch Wes go down that road, but it made sense. It also helped that AD is just the most underrated television actor of all time - and I just wish that the head jerk had the wherewithal to keep the 'deterioration of the family' of Angel investigators in character like that. But no, the crew deteriorated, got dumber and dumber and just plain manipulated by plotwonk from there on out. The writers used Connor to cripple Angel in mind and heart, making it hard for him to see reality, I guess. The one thing that got easier though was portal-jumping. S3 saw the rise of the portal bus stop, where just about anybody with pocket change - I'm thinking Groo - could leap dimensions to their heart's content.

And in the end, while I liked the idea of taking down the Circle of the Black Thorne and Angel playing a shadow game with W&H the whole time, that wasn't set up in the episodes until the very end when they basically said, "Surprise, this is what's been happening off screen!"

Total agreement. Oh, and note to David Fury: You had NO IDEA about the kiss when you (or Joss) wrote that scene in Birthday and YOU KNOW IT. Come clean - The Black Thorn idea has 'slapped together over Christmas' tattooed all over it. Just like the plot of YW, the final 2 eps were really pretty pointless in their execution. Sort of an 'Operation Hellmouth Freedom' - to use a cultural reference.

califi

09-02-2005, 12:25 PM

Come on, I know everyone here was interested of knowing what was in Darla ;).

You're missing what I actually said, lol. NOT interested in pregnant Darla. Full stop.

September

09-02-2005, 12:25 PM

All I know is that babies appearing on a show are usually a bad, bad sign. And ATS is living proof of that. For me I guess I got thoroughly annoyed at the dropping of the Season Four storyline in Season Five. So, you destroy all of these characters, put them through hell and then you don't know what to do? I know some changes were mandated by the network, but still, I can't help feel that the mind-wipe was the ulitmate shark-jumping moment for me. If you are going to ask me to buy into a storyline for a whole season then don't just do a half-baked job of resolving it.

Because, to be honest, I felt that they could have done interesting things with the characters recovering from the aftermath of season 4 - and that especially goes for Cordelia. Here you have someone who has tremendous faith that what she is doing is worth giving her life for if needs be, who perhaps overreaches herself in believing in her specialness to the TPTB, only to have that faith destroyed as the one of the powers uses her against her friends and the world. She is special, but not in the way that she was told, and sifting through that would have been very interesting for the character. They did a pretty good job with Angel's crisis in season 2 - why couldn't they do the same for her?

I think that in that case adding Spike might have been interesting. Because he also is someone who has been made special by wearing the amulet, only to find out that really that that was not really his salvation.

psychofilly

09-02-2005, 12:28 PM

What September said. Exactly, though I still felt they started undermining Cordy after Birthday. But she can still speak for me any day.

v120176

09-02-2005, 12:55 PM

Totally agree with September. I remember some articules when ATS was renewed and before knowing that Cordy, Connor weren't there, what really all the changes meant, etc... a big part of them pointed Cordy's reaction to what happened as one of the best and most interesting storylines to follow in the new season.

That's why I didn't undertand Cordy's pact with the PTB (changing her life to put Angel on his path)..... if what Skip said was true all was a lie, and if he was lying, still she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing.
Also I hated Wes reaction when he found out the truth about the spell W&H put on all of them... not mentioning Connor's one. Wes was like "ok, I feel a little bad, but well, let's just keep moping over Fred" . And Connor, well, he had those memories and was peachy, not a little of the old resented Connor, not a change in his attittude after finding that his whole life was a lie?

The thing is, besides what happened behind the scenes between CC and JW, I'm not sure that under other circunstances (meaning having both a good relationship) there was going to be too much Cordy on ATS 5. Why? Easy, The WB demanded a light version of the show, no more big plots, no more those depressing arcs, storlines. And Cordy and Connor were a constant reminder of that. Even if they wrote a mindwipe for Cordy, all the viewers were going to remember the Concor and the possession and everything. Probably they must have to put some distance, and make Cordy appear for the first time at the 8 episode or more. Cordelia and Connor were the most affected by the general destruction and darkness that season 4 was. They were the ones with more repercutions. Exactly what the WB didn't want at all. So, besides what really happened behind the scenes in season 4 and the asshole that Joss is, I don't know if there was going to be a regular Cordy or Connor in ATS 5 according to WB demands.

Now the discussion about JW accepting everything that the WB demanded is another thing......

September

09-02-2005, 01:11 PM

What September said. Exactly, though I still felt they started undermining Cordy after Birthday. But she can still speak for me any day.

Well, in that case I am going to go around ST spreading mad rumours about you! :-)

v120176:
That's why I didn't undertand Cordy's pact with the PTB (changing her life to put Angel on his path)..... if what Skip said was true all was a lie, and if he was lying, still she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing

I don't get that either; how on earth would she know this was not another rogue power (they seem to have issues with them, after all)? The WB's demands are interesting to talk about, though the show dug that hole for themselves in Season Four with the endless and almost unremmitting darkness of that season. Whedon is not an ingenue; surely he might have suspected that there would be some payback asked for a season like the one they plotted in four? I'm not suggesting conspiracy or anything of that ilk, BTW. It's just that they had to know that they were backing themselves into a corner with season four, hence the convenient mind-wipe at the end.

JoJo

09-02-2005, 01:37 PM

AFAIC, ATS hit nearly every shark jumping category from Dead End on through S3. First, Exit Stage Left: Lindsey, then Moving: Pylea, followed by New Kid In Town: Fred; Hair Care: Cordelia, Death: Darla, Birth: Connor; Puberty: Connor; and They Did It: Fred and Gunn's horrific pancake kisses.

Cata

09-02-2005, 01:43 PM

she was used by a former power, possessed, raped, helped to destroy the little sanity that Connor's mind had and all of that with the powers watching, doing nothing.

Cordy misunderstood the vision warning in "Tomorrow", so I don't think the PTB did nothing. However, they were so much more active with Kate in "Epiphany" and explicit with Connor in "Inside Out". And it could be wanked that they released Angel from Hell and later made snow -- or maybe, that could have been Jasmine or The First -- so he could fit his role in any of their respective plans.

rolandro

09-02-2005, 02:06 PM

... I can't help feel that the mind-wipe was the ulitmate shark-jumping moment for me. If you are going to ask me to buy into a storyline for a whole season then don't just do a half-baked job of resolving it.

Because, to be honest, I felt that they could have done interesting things with the characters recovering from the aftermath of season 4 - and that especially goes for Cordelia.

This whole post is so good. Cordy was THE abused party in S4 and yet? They sideline her and plots begin anew. So many untold stories: Cordy's post-traumatic shock - her alienation from the the Fang Gang and Angel. What DO the PTB do when one of their prime assets - Vision Girl for Main Player in the Apocalypse(s) - gets broken as a direct result of their (non) interference? What does a highly motivated woman of charcacter do in her situation? The PTB owed her one? They owed her a lot more than one kiss, I'll tell you that.

I think that in that case adding Spike might have been interesting. Because he also is someone who has been made special by wearing the amulet, only to find out that really that that was not really his salvation.
Always loved the idea of Spike and Cordy. Not S/C but more along the lines of Spike annoys Angel, Cordy annoys Spike, Cordy doesn't talk to Angel. (If Spike fell for Fred, then he sure as hell would've fallen for a Cordy broken off from the group and isolated). Spike with his HUGE inferiority complex and Cordy. . . oh it would've been like shooting fish in a barrel for that mouth.

Christine

09-02-2005, 07:04 PM

I didn't think BTVS was as good after she went to college. Some real low points were Joyce's death, and the lowest Spike raping Buffy. I hated the potentials, and A.S.H. not being a regular anymore. The Spike/Buffy friendship was kind of odd, but you realize they were really trying to replace Angel there, thats why they did it. I also really disliked Angel coming back in the last episode acting like he still was thinking about him and Buffy getting together someday. It was the wrong time because of what had happened in ATS.

I think When the Angel team joined W/H it was the real end to the show as we know it. Everything changed, along with the continuity. Spike joining the cast did'nt ruin the show, but Cordy dying didn't help the already hardly recognizable Angel. Then to top it off, after years of not thinking he could have a relationship after Buffy, finally realizing he was in love with Cordelia, and loosing her, for some strange reason, Angel jumps head first into a relationship with a woman he bearly knows, and Cordelia is forgotton. Oh, and I forgot to mention the ridiculous jealousy with Spike over Buffy who he clearly had moved on from.

evil_toady

09-02-2005, 08:41 PM

BtVS - The Body - damn fine television, yes, but too depressingly, disturbingly realistic for a show that was supposed to be about the supernatural acting as metaphor for real life. And the show went from being genre-bending to dull, angsty Party of Five type drama, with extremely jarring bits of "comedy" thrown in on occasion.

AtS - Habeas Corpses - W&H had been the major villain for that last three seasons. Yeah, it seemed to've run its course in s3, but then Lilah decapitated Linwood, and that seemed to me to be the shot-in-the-arm that storyline needed. But then they crapped all over it, and made any menace the firm had earlier on seem insulting because this one-note upstart The Beast destroyed it in one freaking episode.

As for ConCord/Jasmine - I didn't mind this storyline until I discovered this site, but now I'm fine with it again. Like others have said, the problem wasn't ConCord, it's that Cordy was acting so weird and horrible without any explanation, and wasn't given a redemption arc.

Mr.Brightside

09-02-2005, 09:18 PM

And Connor, well, he had those memories and was peachy, not a little of the old resented Connor, not a change in his attittude after finding that his whole life was a lie?

Well again, they didn't want to bring back the old Connor from Season 4. Since most of the fans dislike Connor's character in Season 4. I thought IMO that was a good way to go. But we did see a glimpse of the old Connor. When all the memories came rushing back and when he was fighting San jon (sp).

v120176

09-02-2005, 10:24 PM

Well again, they didn't want to bring back the old Connor from Season 4. Since most of the fans dislike Connor's character in Season 4. I thought IMO that was a good way to go. But we did see a glimpse of the old Connor. When all the memories came rushing back and when he was fighting San jon (sp).

Well, that's the thing, spell or not you must have some continuity. You can't turn a spycho, violent, resented teen into a lovely one because one spell. That's cheap and mediocre. It's like trying to fix a whole in the wall with duct tape. Specially when the spell is broken. We saw Connor going nuts on ATS 4. The SAME PERSON suddenly remembers those things, specially the final talk with Angel about all being lies, and knows that the life he had was a farse and he's peachy?
I know Connor choose to keep his false life like it was the real one, not digging to much on that, but that's what I'm saying: the writers took the easy way. The character we saw and that THEY introduced to us colapsed mostly because he was fooled by all the people. And we must think that now he's ok with a bigger lie than the ones he suffered before and that caused him to snap?

califi

09-03-2005, 06:02 AM

Christine: Then to top it off, after years of not thinking he could have a relationship after Buffy, finally realizing he was in love with Cordelia, and loosing her, for some strange reason, Angel jumps head first into a relationship with a woman he bearly knows, and Cordelia is forgotton.

I remember being gobsmacked when I heard about Nina- esp that Wes encouraged it! Giving Eve a bone was bad enough, but this just threw out everything we had ever thought about the curse. I may be wrong, but I always assumed that sex in any form was a big no no for Angel.

I won't even go into how I felt about the ease in which Angel moved on from Cordy's death and his feelings about her. Didn't Fred's death get more reaction, or was that just a rumour?

galathea

09-03-2005, 06:31 AM

It wasn't about sex it was about perfect happiness .. as in bliss, perfect contentment. But the writers as usually screwed it up by making it look as if Angel has to loose his soul whenever he got laid ... hence the closeups when he *comes* with Darla and DreamCordy.

I always thought he should have been coming close to losing his soul at the end of Provider for example, when he and Cordy are lying in his bed, she is feeding Connor and they both slip into sleep ... content with his child and the women he loves, no apocalypse waiting, his little AI family intact and happy ... now THAT should have emerged Angelus.

For Nina ... he knew he didn't love her and there was too much going on anyways as if he could even come close to loose his soul. It didn't really bother me ... to me he had given up hope on love alltogether. His dialogue with Cordy in YW showed that to me:

CORDELIA: Do you ever wonder... Do you ever think about if we'd met up that night and had a chance to—
ANGEL: All the time.
CORDELIA (looks down): Guess we missed our moment, huh?
ANGEL: Maybe we were meant to. Or maybe people like us just don't get to...have that.

What bothered me most was that we saw everybody mourn for Fred for 2 (!) episodes but never got Cordy mentioned again except from Angel.

Mr.Brightside

09-03-2005, 10:39 AM

I know Connor choose to keep his false life like it was the real one, not digging to much on that, but that's what I'm saying: the writers took the easy way. The character we saw and that THEY introduced to us colapsed mostly because he was fooled by all the people. And we must think that now he's ok with a bigger lie than the ones he suffered before and that caused him to snap?

I understand what your saying, and yea it was a bit to easy and peachy. But why would you want to bring back a character, who made everyone's lives harder then they already were. Connor was fooled by the people around, by a bunch a lies. But even with him going to a new family, which was a bigger lie like you said. It made things easier for Connor and also Angel.

califi

09-03-2005, 11:31 AM

Galathea: It wasn't about sex it was about perfect happiness .. as in bliss, perfect contentment. But the writers as usually screwed it up by making it look as if Angel has to loose his soul whenever he got laid ...

One minute it was all sex = Angelus, any sex - D/A boink for eg. He may not have lost his soul, but the veiwers were waiting for it- hell, even Angel/Darla were.

So I disagree with 'making it look like...' as far as I could read from years of watching, it was in enough dialogue b/t the characters to be obvious at the time it was more than just that, lol...they changed their own cannon - S5 did an about turn and it was altered to fit in.

galathea

09-03-2005, 11:51 AM

Well that's what I basically meant .. the whole curse thing seemed to be such a big deal with the perfect bliss blah blah but then they kept making it about sex all the time ... they were inconsistant ... verbally they always went: perfect happiness, hard to achieve yadda yadda ... but on screen it was always: Angels has sex .. whoops ... must look as if he loses his soul. It was just playing with the audience. If it would have been about sex only there would not have been the need for an episode like Awakening or the possibility of an episode like Eternity.

The curse was about the fact that the gypsies wanted Angel to suffer for eternity. The moment he was so happy and content that he didn't feel the weight of his guilt anymore he was destined to lose his soul. He didn't lose his soul with Buffy when they had sex, it was hours after that.
That's what they stated over and over again on the show, that it is very very rare and hard to achieve perfect happiness. So it was obvious that he wouldn't lose his soul to Darla, even when he himself might have thought so in that moment.

That's why I always believed that after the whole Buffy thing he could have had sex with anybody he liked since the moment he KNEW that there was a possibilty of losing his soul again he would never been relaxed enough to feel perfect contentment lol.

califi

09-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Agree totally with that. :D

Christine

09-03-2005, 04:22 PM

In that talk Wes. and Angel had doesn't Angel bring up how its not a good thing for him to have relationships because of the curse or something, thus bringing it up again, like anyone could of forgotton. What really was the point of all that? Unless, like you said, something about teasing the audience. In the end you realized Wes was really thinking of Fred, and himself, when he was talking to Angel about going forward with Nina. Again, the conversation was dumb because of the recent death of Cordy, but the writers could of changed things and they didn't. Wes. could have mentioned her. If there was any reason Wesley himself should take action with Fred, the A/C situation, of never declaring their love soon enough, and missing their chance, would be a reason. I think it was all done on purpose actually, (no mention of A/C, which was ashame because it would of been much more dramatic, better writing.

galathea

09-03-2005, 04:49 PM

No it wasn't about the curse. He mentions it but actually it was about Angel having too much emotional baggage to become invested in an relationship again. He got the feeling that Nina thought about him in a far more *man of her dreams* way than he would be able to be.

WESLEY(stands, throws his hands up, paces):Hiding behind your gypsy curse when there's a beautiful, engaging—all right, occasionally hirsute—young woman who actually wants you?
ANGEL: Wes, it's not gonna happen.
WESLEY: Why?
ANGEL (stands, emphatic):Because I'm not that guy. That guy is charming and funny and... emotionally useful. I'm the guy in a dark corner with the blood habit and the 200 years of psychic baggage.
WESLEY: Get over it!

I never really took that Nina thing serious. He loved two times and lost his love and was about to go on a suicide mission ... why not *get over it* and get it going for once without all that *emotional stuff*.

tojoson

09-03-2005, 06:31 PM

it seems, to me, that a few episodes after your welcome were written as if SMG did come back for the 100th episode, we don't know what would have gone down in that episode, but we wouldn't have had Cordy die or even wake from the coma, but when SMG couldn't come back, they rewrote the 100th episode, but didn't bother to change the following episodes to reflect that fact (that would explain the lack of reference to Cordy dying)

as far as jumping the shark,
in BTVS i think when Spike fell in love with Buffy, Siike was at his best with the chip, but evil. (who can beat "you made a bear, undo it, undo it"

in ATS, Groo appears in WITW (they built C/A up to it's peak, and dashed it to death in 5 seconds

brownsbros3

09-04-2005, 12:41 PM

I never thought about that, but yeah, there could definitely be a case made for Groo reappearing in Waiting in the Wings as the place where the show started its downward slide. I liked the majority of the characters on ATS, but just never could get into the Groosalugg. It was one of the WTF moments (and not in a good way). To me, Cordelia had come along way over the course of season 1-the first part of season 3, but Groo's return was like a major step backwards for her.

As far as Nina, the excuse given at the beginning of Power Play was something about Angel didn't change, because he prevented himself from having a coherent thought during intercourse. That was a lame excuse.

It isn't just sex. To me, it needed to be with someone that he was in love with. There were only two people Angel ever admitted to being in love with Buffy and Cordy. Those were also the only two that triggered the change.

The reason the episodes immediately after the 100th episode looked like they had been written because Buffy came back, was because that was their original plan. Sarah Michelle Gellar told the Sci Fi Wire that she had originally agreed to comeback for that episode, but later had to back out due to a death in her family.