AtS on TNT Discussion Thread [Archive]

KarKar

09-30-2003, 02:11 AM

Oh Lor, I have GOT to get the DVD’s. I really don’t need to eat or pay rent, not really.

I love the old, dorky, socially awkward Angel. The clumsy horse/elephant who doesn’t know how to talk to anyone. I love that sense of humor like him in the bar talking about “this girl” and how the bald guy next to him reminded him of Buffy.

I love the dark coat swirling around like a cloak. Still think that opening set is a rip off of Fritz Lang’s M.

I miss his old apartment and office. I loved the old dusty office straight out of film noir. I miss the bricks and mortar and the easy sewer access. I loved that J Boo décor with the iron sconces and the layout that never made any sense (wooden doors to the kitchen?) Admittedly the elevator was a bust but I loved the dark shadows of the bedroom and the underground lair feel. And the sunlight in the office was a problem. I remember them saying that they had to reshoot several shots because the directors didn’t get that he shouldn’t be able to walk through the sunlit office that easily like in the later scenes.

Heck, I feel nostalgic about seeing Greenwalt and Minear in the credits.

I love how the first five minutes set the tone as being apart from BtVS. Shadows and gray areas, not sunny hypocrites. It’s dirty, dank and apparently always rainy and grainy. No Gilmore Girls speed dialogue but a stoic grit.

Also miss Quinn and that ever present dimple. Those eyebrows that were always moving and his accent. His silver claddaugh ring that inspired me to write stories.

Also love how they kept in the car scene. That little Magnum PI fallibility that set it aside from the macho supermen.

Looking back, you wonder what would’ve happened if he’d have run into Fred working late at the library while he was researching Tina’s friend. Oh the fanfic possibilities.

I also miss the action/fighting sequences. Tighter shots, less ropes and Matrix nonsense, higher sense of kinetic energy and back alley adrenaline.

I miss Lindsey and the hint of W&H, the machinations behind the internal meetings and senior partners. Not to mention his wolfish, feral, “won’t be tamed” hair and that glint in his eye.

I love how Doyle can’t get into the gate, miss that sense of humor w/ even Wes manning two shotguns at a time. Love the details on that gate of the little crosses. Funny décor for a vampire but I guess with that neighborhood.

Ironic of course seeing him as the rogue player, the outlaw riding into town. Now he’s the freakin’ president of W&H.

BTW, how sad is it when you miss the opening credits? Even before the dirge for the axe, I miss those old credits. Especially that shot of CC looking over his shoulder at the PC. That really underlines their chemistry and how they fit physically together so well w/o the staging and focusing lighting of B/A on BtVS. I love how she can’t wear a full length shirt but it’s cold enough to wear a long jacket. I miss him jumping out of that window flailing his arms and her excitement over the invoice. That shot in the sun when she’s worried about Angel.

I miss the old Angel who was the faceless shadow. Cut off from humanity and caring about the world. And how Cordelia was the one who helped him join the world and become part of it. This episode really set up that relationship, his need and how she fulfilled his life. About how the mission is more than lives, it’s souls. Specifically his.

I love Doyle’s little talk about Sunnydale, how high school (implicitly B/A) is over and that it’s time for grown up things. Like say, a grown up relationship based on friendship as opposed to bad metaphors and gaping dialogue. “A could mean anything, it doesn’t have to mean Angel.”

It’s been so long since I’ve seen the party scene. Y’all are right about how he just lights up when he sees her. Like how he picks her unseen voice out of the crowd and noise. Can recognize her talking, her scent and her long hair from the back.

He’s actually interested in her, asking about her and giving her a genuine smile. So different from the guy who moped around the Bronze. I love how his voice is higher and more animated than the distraction with Tina. He doesn’t look as lost. I love that raised eyebrow and his indulgent smile over her comments and his “cure” comment. The way he smirks over her clumsy words and gestures.

She’s already obviously lying over her life, the fast way she describes her condo in Malibu. You wonder if he can tell. She’s also so comfortable with him and his “grr” problem. Loved how she’s already got him puzzled as she goes spinning off. Is it me or does he look a little disappointed as she walks off first.

I also wonder if he’s keeping an eye out for her later on, as he’s waiting for Tina.

Can I just say that I miss Charisma? I love how that little apartment scene. One dress literally in the closet and the carefully unwrapped finger food How her stoic expression and no dialogue still contributes to the character development. No waterworks or histrionics but that stolid sense of persevering.

I love that Winters picks out Cordelia in a room full of starlets. Love how she’s got that intrinsic attraction for vampires. Of course that includes our boy.

BTW, nice segue way where Angel’s telling Stacy there’s no one left for him to care for or love. No emotional weakness in his heart for Winters or his enemies to exploit. Next shot? The raven haired costar. No foreshadowing, not really.

Watching it again I didn’t catch his comments to Doyle about sharing his feelings the first time. How he didn’t want to share and didn’t want to open up. Not until he finds Russell and then he’ll share. Of course, guess who’s with him when he’s finally finding his emotions? Allowing himself to feel and express them? (with explosives but it counts) Timing is everything.

I swear, Charisma’s hair should be billed a supporting player. Straight and gleaming at the party, flowing and curly with Winters for that classic DID dynamic. Messy enough to fly into her face and be dramatic as she’s being swung around by Angel. Don’t miss Angel and Doyle’s matching outfits.

I do miss Charisma though. I love how her monologue goes from bubbly, superficial and a high tone to the lower, confessional, poignant reflections. That hesitation and desperation that that then swings into a funny, snappy dialogue with Russell and his denial over being a vampire. Wonder if CC would ever do voices for animation. But she’s such a good physical actress too. The way she uses her whole body, drooping shoulders, fumbling hands, etc.

I love how she recognizes his voice in the dark. How she immediately feels safe with him but then she turns to concern when she sees him getting beaten. That little call to him.

I swear this scene totally cemented me as a C/A shipper. I love how he rolls towards her, to protect him. It’s going to be a reflex pretty soon. The way he blocks the bullets for her with her flinching in the back.

I love how he reaches for her and she immediately wraps her hands around his neck before they go over the banister. Then the way he leans on her while they’re running for the door.

Even when they reach the car she stays twisted in the car seat for an extra second, making sure he’s ok in the back seat.

I love the bandage scene, how it sets up the pattern of her bandaging him up. Love her little “sorry” when he flinches from her touching the wound. The way he doesn’t growl at her. Not to mention the way he watches her while she talks about being safe from Russell. That frozen look that indicates that he’s thinking along the same lines as Doyle about her safety.

I didn’t notice that the Purple Garanimals were in the pilot. They seem to have this purple theme going from her raisin party dress to his eggplant shirt in the boardroom scene.

I love how she’s immediately the spirit and energy in his life even if it’s screaming about bantam weight cockroaches. Hmmm? Coincidence that it’s right after that call to Buffy? Where they communicate in their usual empathetic way?

Always wondered if those were his clothes she’s wearing in that scene. Doubtful they would’ve let her go home until things were settled. The pants and all are so big on her. She’s got the bulky sleeves rolled up and they’re barely above her wrists and check out the back, that’s not a woman’s cut.

Love how she inserts herself into his life. The way she’s already comfortable enough to tell him what he should do. That it’s a “we” and not a “you.” They’ve already got that negotiating dynamic on things.

Especially like that moment when she drops her act with him. Lets him see her vulnerabilities and face his rejection when she asks if he could use her. But he does and we see this sweet little exchange of private smiles on both sides. Genuine ones.

And yes, it’s canon when Doyle establishes that she’s his connection to the world and the humanizing element in his life. And yeah, as he noticed, she’s a hottie.

starlet2367

09-30-2003, 08:29 AM

Oh, Kar. I just love you. I love your subtext reports--I'd forgotten how much I loved them until you came out with this one. Shit, these just *make* the show for me now. I'm excited about watching Angel again on TNT just so I can notice these little details! Wah! Can we have S1 Angel and Cordy back?

Kel

Dannyblue

09-30-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by starlet2367
Oh, Kar. I just love you. I love your subtext reports--I'd forgotten how much I loved them until you came out with this one. Kel

I agree toatlly. Kar, you are the subtext queen.

I just love that confused look Angel gets on his face when he's dealing with Cordelia in "City Of". It's a look that will be around for most of season 1, and I love it. If you ask me, trying to "get" Cordelia is part of what humanized Angel. So often, the other people in his life were happy to let him brood and be stand-offish. But not Cordy. Working with Cordy every day, he almost had to open up and loosen up.

By the way, as mentioned above, love how, when Cordy told him to get the box, he was actually doing it before he caught himself.

Watching "City Of" reminded me how totally intense Angel was. Now, I can't believe I thought DB wouldn't be able to handle his own show.

LaLa247

09-30-2003, 08:53 AM

I love Kar.

It's a look that will be around for most of season 1, and I love it. If you ask me, trying to "get" Cordelia is part of what humanized Angel. I miss the confused look...it was there for three years. Ugh.

This is really OT, but while watching "Heartthrob", I loved how when everyone left after Angel told his story, he turns to Cordy with "James really lived for that girl" and she replies with a simple, quiet "Yeah". It was a nice moment between the two, something that went all the way back to season one. I miss that.

canadia

09-30-2003, 05:04 PM

You know, re-watching Lonely Hearts today really got me thinking. Did anyone else actually like Kate Lockley? Because I was pretty indifferent to her the first time around, but now that I've been thinking about it and re-watching the show, I actually like her a lot. She was a very adult character, and it really helped distinguish the show from the high schoolyness of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Even though we got some pretty good closure for her character, I think it'd be really cool to see her come back for an episode or two in the fifth season.

Dannyblue

09-30-2003, 05:14 PM

I always liked Kate. I wasn't online at the time, so had no idea how much heat the character (and the actress) took. I saw Kate as a good possible love-interest for Angel, which is where they were obviously going. Somehow, it just never clicked. It seemed like, the more they got to know each other, the less likely a romance between them seemed to be. If that even makes sense.

You know what I think the main problem was? They were too much alike. Neither one brought anything new to the equation. She was serious, he was broody, both were reserved. Put them together and you get two serious, broody, reserved people.

Anyway, I liked ER. She's a beautiful woman, and Kate's a take-charge kinda gal. So, yeah, I cool with Kate when she first appeared on AtS.

LaLa247

09-30-2003, 05:32 PM

I liked Kate until she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing way too far.

Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*

I miss Doyle.

Dannyblue

09-30-2003, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*

He also smiled when she was talking about his not being able to have sex or risk going evil and killing everybody. It's like he wasn't smiling at what she said. It was more, "I can't believe she said that! Doesn't she know people are supposed to tip-toe around the fact that I was once evil and homocidal. That they're supposed to deny that Angelus and I are one and the same. But, no, she just talks about it...like she accepts that part of me or something. Hey, she brought up my dark past! I should be all broody and guilt-ridden by now, unable to meet her eyes because of the shame. Why am I smiling at her? But I can't help it. The way she said it, I just can't find the brood within."

Sorry. I went to another place there.

Anyway, he smiled at (or for) Cordy a lot in LH.

Shannon

09-30-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
I liked Kate until she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing way too far.

Angel smiled a hell of a lot in this episode. I loved how he attempted to please Cordy with the smiling over her business cards. It was cute- just like Angel's smile when he asked Cordy if she really lived in her apartment. He was teasing her. *g*

I miss Doyle.

LaLa girl same with me. Liked Kate at first but then she find out he was a Vampire and she turn into a compelet bitch to him after all the time he safe her ass.

Angelia

09-30-2003, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
I just love that confused look Angel gets on his face when he's dealing with Cordelia in "City Of". It's a look that will be around for most of season 1, and I love it. If you ask me, trying to "get" Cordelia is part of what humanized Angel. So often, the other people in his life were happy to let him brood and be stand-offish. But not Cordy. Working with Cordy every day, he almost had to open up and loosen up.

You know I was just re-reading a story yesterday that I hadn't read in a while called Cute Little Flaws (http://www.panthermoon.com/nothing/archive/x_jackson/cuteflaws.html) by Jackson that to me really captures S1 Cordy and Angel and what you just described. The story also kinda reminded me of the scene where Cordy tells him he can't fire her because she's Vision Girl and sticks her tongue out at him and despite himself he can't help but smile. If you like that story you can find more stories by Jackson over at Nothing To Hide (http://www.panthermoon.com/nothing/index2.html).

I can't believe how excited I am about being able to see AtS everyday on the air even though I have the DVD's and can watch them anytime I want. The only thing I'm not liking is where they're putting the commercial breaks. They're not putting them in the usual places and so some of the scene changes seem kind of abrupt. There's something I noticed during "City Of" when Cordy is at Russell Winters house and they start shooting and Angel picks her up and jumps over the bannister. I don't think I've ever seen anybody else bring it up and I'm wondering if I'm just seeing things. Has anybody else noticed that Cordy's shoes change during that scene? When Angel first picks her up in his arms she has on one pair of sandals but when he turns around to jump over the bannister it's a totally different pair. I know it's really trivial but could someone else check out that scene and let me know what they see.

And I still can't understand how Angel and Doyle didn't know it was an angel on the business cards. Why the hell would they think she'd put a bird or a butterfly on the card? It looked like an angel to me. I love watching the scene in the club where she's handing out the cards and she says that one line to the guy about his lazy eye. :lol:

As for the Kate situation I'm kinda between Canadia and LaLa. I was pretty indifferent to her until as LaLa put it she took the "You're a vampire, therefore, I must hate you" thing to the extreme.

Dannyblue

09-30-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Angelia
I can't believe how excited I am about being able to see AtS everyday on the air even though I have the DVD's and can watch them anytime I want.

Well, I haven't seen most of these episodes since they aired 4 years ago. I only have 5 eps on tape, including "City Of". Watching "Lonely Hearts" was like watching an episode I'd never seen, because I barely remembered it.

Originally posted by Angelia
And I still can't understand how Angel and Doyle didn't know it was an angel on the business cards. Why the hell would they think she'd put a bird or a butterfly on the card?

It was just an excuse to get a laugh at Cordy's expense. And, okay, I did get a laugh...at Angel's and Doyle's expense. I've always thought it was a very cool abstract drawing of an angel. And considering she drew the picture to put on business cards for a guy named Angel...Come on, guys, it shouldn't have been that hard for you to make the leap.

KarKar

09-30-2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
You know what I think the main problem was? They were too much alike. Neither one brought anything new to the equation. She was serious, he was broody, both were reserved. Put them together and you get two serious, broody, reserved people.
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.

I don't like ER as an actress myself, she's pretty much done horribly in every role I've seen her in to the point that she's the critics' favorite joke. I wish they'd have gotten someone better like Charlotte Ross. I loved her in "Beggers and Choosers" at the time and thought she'd have made a great empathetic Kate.

tojoson

09-30-2003, 06:44 PM

i have come to the conclusion that you won't find anyone better at puting subtext on the screen than CC. DB is excellent, but i think he took lessons from her. she is just so believable

Darla

09-30-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years. While I really like Elisabeth Rohm as an actress that about sums up her character Kate perfectly. Guess all those similiarities to Buffy made me hate her the second I saw her first.

I think they might have been able to make Kate a little more likeable if they hadn't went for the whole "All vampires are evil" mindset of hers.

*sighs* Reading this thread makes me realize how much I'd like to have the old AtS eps on on a daily basis, too. Guess I should start watching at least an episode a night again. :)

Lovin' Lorne

09-30-2003, 06:52 PM

Re: Kate

Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.

I don't like ER as an actress myself, she's pretty much done horribly in every role I've seen her in to the point that she's the critics' favorite joke. I wish they'd have gotten someone better like Charlotte Ross. I loved her in "Beggers and Choosers" at the time and thought she'd have made a great empathetic Kate.

Wordy word word word...

I never did like Kate for all of the above reasons, and doubt I'll start liking her now.

And a big fat "me too" on your opinion's of ER's acting skills. ER = Tree = Wood.

LaLa247

09-30-2003, 09:13 PM

I think Kar hit the nail on the head for me. She was too much like Buffy. Rather, they were trying to make her like Buffy, and it was kinda obvious. Didn't like it.

The lazy eye thing also had me rolling, but not as much as Doyle's "You're disgusting" to Cordy. It was just one of those lines that had to be delivered perfectly for it to work, and Glenn Quinn did it. He said it so simple and without a comical tone, it was very dry. He was a great foil for Charisma, who was Boreanaz's foil. It really worked.

Originally posted by tojoson
i have come to the conclusion that you won't find anyone better at puting subtext on the screen than CC. DB is excellent, but i think he took lessons from her. she is just so believable Y'know, I think Charisma can have chemistry with a rock- she's that good. But when regarding subtext, I think Boreanaz took it and ran with it. He did things that weren't in the script, like the smiling all throughout LH. We know by this ep, the second one, that Angel was kind of taken by Cordy.

Boreanaz really pushed the subtext, and I give him credit for that. And it makes me wonder, especially during LH, how much of the smiling was Boreanaz just "entranced" with Charisma, or him acting; and vice versa with Charisma. They really look like they got along, and it shows on screen.

Sorry, I rambled.

I also loved how it was obvious Charisma and Boreanaz fed off each other in scenes. Wonderful chemistry.

Dannyblue

09-30-2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
For me she was too much like Buffy. And not in the good way. Whiney, flippant, quick to judge and a major chip on her shoulder. Kind of like Buffy if she survived another 10-15 years.

Okay, get ready to pounce. I liked Kate at first because she was so much like Buffy.

Take a deep breath and let me explain.

At the time, I was still a mild B/Aer. And, like Kar said, I thought of her as "Buffy in 10 or 15 years." The similarities, especially in later episodes, are so striking. And, well, if Angel had to be with anybody, I figured that, if he picked someone that much like Buffy, it would mean he only really still loved Buffy, and Kate was just a substitute. So, she was a good stand-in as far as I was considered. A place-holder until Angel and Buffy could get back together.

I know, I know. But that's where my head was when the series started. By about mid-season, all of my B/A-ness had faded. The C/A thing was already working it's magic...although I remained in denial until season two.

I just noticed something watching "Lonely Hearts" that made me think. It's the last scene between Angel and Kate. There are ambulances, police, and paramedics everywhere. As Angel walks away, Kate watches wistfully as he disappears into the night.

Remind anyone of another scene? Say, the one in at the end of "Graduation". The Sunnydale High parking lot is filled with ambulances, police, paramedics, etc. As Angel walks away, preparing to leave Sunnydale, Buffy watches wistfully as he disappears into the night.

Makes you wonder.

KarKar

10-01-2003, 03:23 AM

I think Kate was a missed opportunity and an obvious underdog as just about everyone hated her before she was even on.

Which doesn't have to be the final factor. I hated Riley at first too but the character and Marc Blucas won me over to the point that I still say he's probably the most suitable guy she's dated.

Surprised how much I enjoyed Lonely Hearts. This is a great episode for DB. I love how he just plays the straight man, does deadpan to the nth degree and is at his bumbling best. Also he works his eyebrows and eyes like a pro. Totally blew me away after his non-acting on BtVS where he just kind of stood there and looked sad for Buffy. Really had me laughing with his little nonverbal responses.

Like when Doyle asked that he not say anything about his being demon, that sarcastic expression was priceless. And that closing scene where he says “God yes thank you” when Doyle suggests he can sit in the dark and brood? First time I saw that I knew DB could really carry the show.

I also love the brooding in the dark Angel. Really kind of crystalizes the character during that season. That and him walking with his hands in the pocket of that large black trench coat. Not the swagger of the leather but more the PI.

They had all these little details and touches that first season. Like the two or three lonely people sitting alone at tables. Can’t recall any subtle details or pointed touches like that at the Bronze. Everything had to be obvious to register in that setting.

I am disappointed that they cut out the implication that the guy thought Angel was hitting on him. They kept the wrong car scene from the pilot but couldn’t use one more Angel couldn’t be less of a player joke?

Is it me or did Glenn Quinn really hack off wardrobe that week? Usually they have at least a decent combination of loud shirt and naugahyde jacket but good grief, they found the most fugly combo’s for that one. One usually brought out his eyes but both just washed him out. Apparently hacked off hair and make up too judging by what looks like hat hair by the end.

I remember this as the intro for ER. I know a lot of folks liked her but I can’t imagine her as some coked out cop and pulling it off that was originally described. She really struggled in this one, like the bar scenes where her emotions/expressions had to be very obvious. I guess she just struck me as a very superficial in terms of portraying emotions. Contrasted to Justine who really had that behind her eyes maelstrom going on.

Plus, her delivery is just so flat and monotone. Her monologue in the apartment when she finds Angel was just so bad. Not crisp or lively while she’s throwing off cop-like comments and matter of fact flat when she needed to be ingratiating and soothing while she talked about his frustration.

Top it off with her obvious stunt double and it wasn’t her best show. She wasn’t strong in her physical performance so when they have the blatant cut aways, it didn’t flow for me.

Watching it this time I couldn’t help but wonder how the heck she found Angel’s apartment. It’s not like he’s got a last name she could index. Nor did she have a business card judging by the last scene where she couldn’t figure out the angel on the front.

And for Pete’s sake, Angel’s walking home with the sun up and roaming around Cordelia’s sunlight apartment.

And I know I’m venting but this is the episode that started the trend of not letting Charisma wear a real shirt with real support. Gimme a break.

Not that Charisma let it stop her. I loved her little sales pitch at the club. Throwing off innocent but unbelievably blunt comments like the lazy eye. Ratching up for a throw down when the jerk called her a hooker? Great. What else would you expect from *an ACTRESS*.

I didn’t remember a lot of this. Like that weird little twist of Angel’s head when Doyle talked about the three of them going out. Not sure he every endorsed C/D but he just blew the whole thing off whenever Doyle made his intentions known.

I love his failed but almost agonized attempt to get caught up in the business cards. The sudden enthusiasm and appreciation of her getting the cards. That weird little twisting while he was trying to make out the figure. Loved how she gets him squirming over nothing by the second episode.

This scene also has Angel and Cordelia looking at each other off screen a lot. Like when Doyle’s hit by the visions, Angel keeps looking at her. For reassurance from her or to reassure himself that she’s ok, I’m not sure. Strange seeing Doyle with the visions. I noticed that Angel didn’t really cuddle or sooth him during the mind numbing flailing. Even after it, he’s looking to her while talking.

I don’t really remember this much unspoken dynamic between them either. For some reason I thought it was pretty much Doyle/Angel back then but Angel seemed to include her more as a partner than Doyle. The shorter man seemed more of the scheming, scooping in approaching her than Angel.

Like when they walk down the stairs at the club. Cordelia/Angel in front with Doyle following behind like an afterthought. For some reason I thought they had her sitting at home or in the office more often than not doing her nails but that’s probably due to too much bad fanfic.

I wonder why she only handed Angel the cards, not Doyle. Kind of weird like he’s not even there. I noticed that Angel didn’t even question it but dutifully took the cards.

Which was a good thing. When he’s at a loss of words he looked down and aped her slogan on the cards. Reminds me of when she ghost-wrote his apology to Merle. And frankly that conversation needed it. I know it was supposed to be intentionally fumbling and awkward but boy, it was for more than plot reasons.

Reminded me of the Lilah/Angel meeting later on when you immediately got a sense of attraction and a large dose of tension.

Later on it’s really obvious how C/A’ve already got their interdynamics down when she immediately looks for Angel when the brawl starts. How she’s watching him and whimpering “Angel” while Doyle’s the one getting hurt.

Then he talks to Cordelia, not Doyle while they’re commiserating at the table later. Talks about Doyle in the third person even though he’s sitting there. The masks are already starting to fall while they talk about loneliness and their lack of social activity.

I love that little smirk and light in her eyes while he’s pouring out his heart about his days as Liam. You know she’s imagining him hitting the taverns and wenches. Not just the usual blank look someone else would’ve done.

Not to mention her attempt to be sympathetic to him. That little monologue where she tries to empathize with him. That alone was not something you expect from Queen C. But I love his reaction ranging from defensive to almost laughing at her bluntness. He sounds gruff when he asks her why but by the end he’s smiling at her and some of it is genuine. That wry little comment on how he appreciates her viewpoint. But on her side it really is genuine.

I love how he’s left sputtering with Doyle while she’s twirling off, literally. And really, does anyone believe her concern was purely vocational about having a homicidal maniac for a boss?

Another thing that was pretty common thru this was his patience with her. He’s still working on basic social skills and she’s really pushing him with her lack of computer skills and mishearing things. By season 2 he doesn’t even break stride but now he’s making a concerted effort to be calm. Like the borrower/donky comment.

For instance when she’s searching for the news. Number one, they’re doing it in the office, not breaking into the library. I’m sure that was her initiative to get a computer and internet. But I love that little look they exchange when Doyle finds the two bodies in the news. How they’re confirming their opinions with each other. Then she notices him starting to leave and wants to know where he’s going.

There were a couple of high school references again like the pilot. Like when the possessed girl was talking about dating is now by a different set of reference points (that don’t include Buffy). Also, when Cordelia talked about dating in Sunnydale was partly cuz they were all monster food. Little shared history between them as he WAS the monster hunting him and he reacts with his knuckles on the table. I’m sure that’s always somewhere on his mind at this point.

I love how she knows who “me” is when he shows up at her apartment. Her immediate response to his less than obvious bruises. Even the cut on his forehead was gone by then. That little pause and firm voice when she asks if he’ll be good wasn’t really a kidding tone. I suspect memories of Angelus are always in her mind at this point too. It’s an obstacle for their friendship but it’s not stopping it.

I love how her apartment cuts into his tight focus over the demon. Brings him up short. I thought it was laughter in his eyes the first time but it looks more like disbelief in that expression.

She’s also more affected his comments than Doyle’s. She pretty much blew him off but with Angel she went into the maid babbling, she couldn’t even meet his eyes. And he knows it by the way he drops his head.

I firmly believe that they had Cordelia paired with Doyle up front but her obvious reactions to his touch and any claims by him like in the club were pretty aggressive. Not the adversarial tension like with Xander but almost disgust.

Kind of like Angel’s reaction when he came back to the apartment and found them sleeping on the couch. I don’t know if he was just hacked off that the door was unlocked or that they were defensive less. However it’s certainly not an endorsement of them.

Love the little scene where she’s concerned about him calling Kate and going back to the club. He’s been spotted and she’s worried. I love that comment about being lonely and what lonely people do. He keeps her eyes while he says it with all his vulnerabilities and personal loneliness out there. She drops her eyes realizing how much of that is her as well.

I really love how both DB and CC have these genuine, warm little smiles/expressions. Like in the end where Angel’s pushing himself to invite the others out. Funny how he keeps looking at Cordelia but hey, can’t quite keep her eyes so he ends looking at Doyle. Look at him when he talks about going out for fun.

But I love her knowing, warm smile that’s almost sultry cuz she knows how hard he’s trying not to be him.

Shannon

10-01-2003, 04:36 PM

Okay I am watching "In the Dark" and I am soooo loving the old Spike! The one that was a bad ass and not Buffy Lap dog. And he is really making me wish that he will be a bad Ass on this season! Also love the nick name he told Angel of Buffy "Slutty The Vampire Slayer" Sorry any Buffy Fans in here but that quote is so funny!

After seeing Cordy & Doyel in this season I can not believe that they never hook up together! You can tell Doyel does like Cordy. In season 1 I wanted her with Doyel or Angel.

I am soo glad TNT is playing on Rerun of Angel!

Miss Doyel :(

Dannyblue

10-01-2003, 05:23 PM

Kar, I did tell you you're the master, right? Or maybe the queen? Well, you're both. You not only put things I've thought into words better than I could have, you also let me see new and pretty great things.

And Cordy/Angel gelled much better than I remembered.

Just watched ITD. I didn't like Spike all that much at the time but, since I'm now a fan, I can see how cool he is in this episode.

And I still want to shake Angel for not keeping that ring. Although, what he did was completely in character for him at that time. He doesn't think he deserves the ring, but he knows he'll be tempted to use it if he kept it around. Still, did he have to be so drastic? Have Oz hide it, and forbid him to give it back...unless the situation was really serious.

I think season 3 Angel would have kept it.

KarKar

10-01-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
Kar, I did tell you you're the master, right? Or maybe the queen? Well, you're both. You not only put things I've thought into words better than I could have, you also let me see new and pretty great things.
I prefer to go by the title "Betrayed by Joss" but if I get a tiara out of it or one of those pretty sashes I'll gladly be your queen.

Looking at Doyle though, I still imagine Glenn Quinn on "Dead like Me." That character is basically another Doyle.

But how ironic that they show "In the Dark" tonight when the Spike show is premiering?

Darla

10-01-2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
Kar, I did tell you you're the master, right? Or maybe the queen? Well, you're both. You not only put things I've thought into words better than I could have, you also let me see new and pretty great things.Well said... You rock, Kar!

I think season 3 Angel would have kept it. Or Cordy would have made him keep it... you know - just in case... *g*

I wanted to watch ITD last night... but with all the Spike stuff goin' on I couldn't get myself to fast forward to that ep. I watched "City Of" and "Lonely Hearts" instead... Good old days... :)

missdini

10-01-2003, 05:42 PM

Those old epis were really great! I'll always love seasons 1,2 and 3! And i so miss the C/A subtext. And there was really a lot of subtext between them.

Btw: Kar you are the subtext queen, really!:)

tojoson

10-01-2003, 05:50 PM

man, i'm missing a lot.
i guess what i'm going to have to do is watch the episode, wait for kar's review, then watch it again.

a question
who do you people think is MOST responsible for the subtext
the writers,
the directors,
or the actors

missdini

10-01-2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by tojoson
a question
who do you people think is MOST responsible for the subtext
the writers,
the directors,
or the actors

I think the actors mostly. Cause i remember reading that JW ( :rolleyes: ) asked CC and DB to tone down their chemistry in season 1.
And then people say there is no chemistry between C/A?:rolleyes:

Dannyblue

10-01-2003, 06:07 PM

I think DB and CC were just clicking. They didn't have much chance to interact on BtVS. Maybe they were surprised by how well they worked together and just went with it. Or maybe they weren't doing it intentionally. It was that chemistry, that I noticed even back then, at work.

And, I mean, okay, I didn't have C/A eyes at the time, but how did I miss this stuff the first time around. The way Angel works so hard to like the cards. How worried Cordy gets about him, and this is only episode 3 of the entire series. I mean, this is Spike. But, once she got the ring, she was determined to face off against him because "We gotta save Angel". Doyle had to hold her back so they could come up with a strategy.

(sigh) I'm loving seeing these eps again.

KarKar

10-01-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by missdini
I think the actors mostly. Cause i remember reading that JW ( :rolleyes: ) asked CC and DB to tone down their chemistry in season 1.
And then people say there is no chemistry between C/A?:rolleyes:
And that's with their strict "Cordelia and Angel cannot touch each other" policy.

I think they did have some chemistry on BtVS but it was so cut down. I remember being really struck by them in "Some Assembly Required" with her in the dumpster. It was immediately so different from the focused, deliberate B/A vibe and the histrionics surrounding the Xander/Cordelia throw downs.

LaLa247

10-01-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
And that's with their strict "Cordelia and Angel cannot touch each other" policy. The what?

I watched half of ItD, and I realized how much I loved the old Spike. He was so, so funny and just great. *g*

I loved that line Spike said about good guys in packs. So very true.

KarKar

10-01-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
The what?
I forget what interview but Charisma had been complaining about the running queue of directors. How in something like Expecting they wanted DB to touch her as a way of comforting her or something. I mean really, didn't that scene in her bedroom cry out for some Angel soothing?

Bothered her because they'd made a point of Angel not touching her or really the others because he was the stand-offish vampire.

Penny Century

10-01-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
I forget what interview but Charisma had been complaining about the running queue of directors. How in something like Expecting they wanted DB to touch her as a way of comforting her or something.
Yeah, she made the comment that the directors sometimes wanted things that weren't "allowed" within the mythology they were building for the show (e.g. the Vampire of the first part will not touch the Secretary of the second part except for purposes of physically transporting or helping to transport the first or second part to another physical location of the third part). The actors sometimes had to explain the standoffish-vampire thing and other "rules" to the guest helmers.

Let me just add my voice to the KarKar chorus. Girl, you still got it -- and some of us have really, really missed it.

Izzychase

10-01-2003, 07:29 PM

I was watching the ep when Cordy gets impregnated by Christopher Wilson (not sure of the ep title) but I loved the beginning:

Wes putting his arm around Angel's shoulders while saying, "Oh, no, he doesn't lounge," in his geeky, S1 Wes way was hilarious. It reminded me of the 'good ol' days' of the Angel/Cordy/Wes dynamic and it made me wish for a little Wes/Angel slash. :D

Oh, and I miss the credits too... especially the one with DB smiling. He hasn't done that lately. :(

QueenC

10-01-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Penny Century
Yeah, she made the comment that the directors sometimes wanted things that weren't "allowed" within the mythology they were building for the show (e.g. the Vampire of the first part will not touch the Secretary of the second part except for purposes of physically transporting or helping to transport the first or second part to another physical location of the third part). The actors sometimes had to explain the standoffish-vampire thing and other "rules" to the guest helmers.

Let me just add my voice to the KarKar chorus. Girl, you still got it -- and some of us have really, really missed it.

Really helps emphasize how important Cordy became to Angel by season 3 when they're hugging each other in Heartthrob and constantly reaching for each other... or in TVT when Angel is touching her and trying to comfort her.

OR... in TSILA when he grabs her hand and tells her he needs her. The simplest body language can mean so much!

And I too bow to the brilliance that is Kar!

Lori :)

Syn

10-01-2003, 10:41 PM

Joining in with the KarKar love. I'm definitely loving the subtext you're rocking. *sigh* I missed this show.

KarKar

10-02-2003, 01:04 AM

I still think someone did offend the gods of irony by having In the Dark episode run the same night as the season premiere. I have to admit though I still like his little narration. “Quickly! To the Angelmobile!” I’m easily amused I admit.

I think for me this was the last of the real Spike who was a danger/Big Bad. Even before the puppy got neutered he was kind of beaten when he was left in an abandoned warehouse with his hair on fire. Kind of pathetic.

Remember the thrill of recognizing where a scene in the credits same from? It’s crying girl! I love when the guy pops out and he looks like of like Angel. Or DB’s skinny little cousin.

This episode always reminded me of Beauty and the Beasts in how it uses demons as a metaphor for domestic violence and addiction.

Speaking of beasts, I never noticed before that Oz and Angel had the same hairdresser.

And did anyone else notice Doyle in the blue shirt and black leather jacket? Unlike that bland fugly stuff from yesterday that blue brings out those amazing eyes and the black leather’s always in style.

BTW, since just about everyone can be slashed, does anyone know of any Oz/Doyle slash? I’m thinking there’s got to be a couple of good explanations why Doyle calls Oz Bam Bam.

It’s weird but did anyone else think of The Wish when they saw this episode? Seeing Oz with those little bows and the van, he looked like the White Hat who wouldn’t give up on Sunnydale.

Really weird OT question: does anyone know when Charisma got her rosary tattoo? Last episode they showed her bare wrist prominently. Now she’s got the bulky bracelets. I remember wondering what happened to Queen C that she was wearing rag tag accessories.

But I really miss that old brick set. Loved the sliding doors and the huge garage. I also love/miss characters like Frankie Tripod. I think he’s going to be on the Soprano’s this season. He should be anyway with that name.

They really poured on the Doyle/Cordelia vibe in this one. No wonder the websites were popping up like mushrooms. That look in his eyes when she figured out Frankie’s nickname was kind of blatant.

Did anyone ever see the video of Angel and Spike to Bush’s “Chemicals Between Us?” That fight between Angel and Spike I think was the bulk of it. Probably the best video in matching the action shots and the music.

I loved Angel in Rachel’s apartment. Emerging from the shadows in the corner and carefully skirting the pool of sunlight from the window.

Between the film noir flavor and the vampire angle, Ats did a good job with the light and shadows, especially the earlier seasons compared to the sunny, happy Sunnydale.

I like the silhouettes of Spike and the others in the warehouse, Angel moving shadow to shadow, those gunholes in the ceilings. Especially the office and Angel’s apartment. Cordelia’s upstairs in the light, he’s in the dark below. I miss the sewers and the foggy shadows in the tunnels. Maybe I’m just jonesing for Beauty and the Beast.

Speaking of his apartment below, I remember some club sent him some appliance that they kept in the kitchen. Was it the coffee maker?

Does anyone else find it hard to believe that the same girl who thought “Del” stood for “Delivery” is generating invoices? I guess it depends on your motivation. And the person who’s motivating you.

I felt so sad for her when she was gushing over Oz. This was the same guy who she couldn’t bother to even address properly or say hellow. Shows how isolated and shut off she’s already become from her life in Sunnydale. Something she’s got in common with Angel.

BTW, was it me or was she a little defensive about Angel being a detective with a hat and gun? I guess the protective vibe goes both ways.

She still seems to be into that gear when they go into the Batcave. Her little comments about Buffy, upset that she didn’t even send Angel a note. But she’s aware of him enough to register his look and back off her criticisms of Buffy. Those were more or less a reflex after three years of high school so it’s become habitual.

When she talked about being one of those topics she should avoid I wondered who talked to her about it recently? And who did she take seriously enough to listen? Certainly not Giles.

Also love her comments on him sitting around brooding. Even if he’s downstairs most of the time she’s aware of him and what he’s going through.

Oh, look at her smile for him when Doyle’s describing what he can do with the ring. But then she’s reacting to his anxiety over the ring. Really noticeable next to Oz’s wooden man bit.

I like her little wave and smile to him as she leaves. One of those nonverbal flourishes that added texture compared to most situations where the actress would just walk out.

BTW, did Angel make a lot of clothing comments on BtVS? Now he’s complaining about Spike’s accessories clashing. Wonder if he’s been indoctrinated by Cordelia already. Or just sneaking her “Marie Claire.”

Notice how Angel’s between her and Spike. Who said chivalry’s dead?

Did you notice that Cordelia didn’t even wait till Spike had left to ask if Angel was ok? That check on Angel drive is already there.

And yet his immediate reaction is her safety and having Doyle take her to his place. Takes one obsessive vamp to understand another when a pretty girl’s involved. Love how she’s concerned about him and asks what he’s going to do. He looks at her directly when he answers. They’re looking at each other while she seems to pause and nods before she agrees to go.

I’m probably reaching but did anyone think of B/A when Angel was talking about bad, dysfunctional relationships that hurt and are more a habit than healthy. The pleasure that just doesn’t last because the pain is inevitable. He’s in that withdrawal phase himself as he’s just left Sunnydale but hey, let’s move onto healthier, real relationships. “The kind of love that you [he, Cordelia] deserve.” Right?

I love that boy in plum. Really brings out that vampirish sallow look. Got that Purple Hippo Garanimals on. Doesn’t quite match her lilac pants.

She really is nervous for Angel judging by the way she’s crouched over, anxious while Doyle’s on the phone with him.

Oh! She’s so worried for him while she’s sitting with the phone in her lap! That quiet, breathy voice worrying about things going badly for him. Wonder if she sat up all night in that chair waiting for him to call. From her expression she can’t even swallow Doyle’s fake assurances about hanging ten. Or maybe it was the image of him and the bikini babes. Eh, probably the image of Spike burning him up from the inside.

Liked Marcus’ comments about Angel having something to loose. He can smell it on his soul. Now since he didn’t have anything to loose in the pilot that kind of narrows the field to Doyle and Cordelia.

I love that confrontation she has with Spike. Her physical realization that he was telling the truth about dying before the arrow left the bow. Not a big deal but still a nice touch by Charisma. Just like her reaction to the news that Angel was being tortured. She’s rattled but can still be strident with Spike. Heh, I love his little “duh” comment.

I think this was the first time we saw her in the sewers. Probably the only reason she’s down there is her concern for Angel. She certainly wasn’t happy about it the next time. You can tell she’s anxious, immediately goes to the next step mentally when they find the ring. But not really able to think clearly which Doyle points out.

I was kind of impressed that she could be snarky with Spike on the wharf despite the fact that he had her so shaken up last time by his threat of killing her. Doesn’t hesitate to follow him as he leads her to Angel. I guess when you’ve got the right motivation…

I love how she tries to rush to him despite Spike in her way. That raw way she calls his name. I totally love how he responded to her, called her name when he can’t even raise his head. Specifically hers, not Doyle’s. And check out her almost anguished look when she realizes how much pain he’s in.

She’s so worried about him in the van that she’s trying to get him to a hospital. Uh, Cordelia, vampire? Remember?

Still though I think it’s becoming typical to see her focus on him when he’s hurt, trying to derail them from following Marcus. Her feelings are so strong that she’s the one calling the spade a shovel. Angel being in bad shape outweighing Marcus’ thing for kids.

I guess this is the episode where she becomes his official worrier. Like when they find him on the beach, she’s the one who asks if he’s ok. Wants him to lie down. She reaches out to touch him in more ways than one and almost violates that “no touching” policy. Even when Doyle tells her to leave him alone she’s standing there worried with her arms crossed.

I have to wonder who told him once or twice that he was a brooding addict? I don’t see Buffy noticing something like that or Xander/Giles caring. That leaves either Doyle or Cordelia as the ones who are around him enough to know him that well and since Doyle’s the one who’s asking, guess who’s left? Say the girl who was making “moping” observations earlier.

BTW, what’s this with Ats on Tuesdays at 11? Are they showing the new episodes then?

Angelia

10-02-2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by KarKar

I’m probably reaching but did anyone think of B/A when Angel was talking about bad, dysfunctional relationships that hurt and are more a habit than healthy. The pleasure that just doesn’t last because the pain is inevitable. He’s in that withdrawal phase himself as he’s just left Sunnydale but hey, let’s move onto healthier, real relationships. “The kind of love that you [he, Cordelia] deserve.” Right?

You're not reaching. I haven't re-watched this ep in quite a while and although I remember Angel talking to Rachel in her apartment I didn't really remember any of the conversation they had but watching the ep today I was thinking the exact same thing as you. Glad to know I'm not alone.

Originally posted by KarKar
BTW, what’s this with Ats on Tuesdays at 11? Are they showing the new episodes then?

After watching the promo I was checking my digital cable guide for Tuesday and it looks like they're starting with "Deep Down" so it looks like they'll be re-running S4. Which is strange because after looking at the description for the Charmed episode that's being shown and checking the WB site it looks like they'll be re-running whatever Charmed ep that was shown the Sunday before. So they'll be showing this season's Charmed and last season's AtS.

ETA: Just checked the TNT (http://www.tnt.tv/Schedule/0,9893,6|Central,00.html) schedule for next Tuesday to confirm and they are indeed showing "Deep Down" and "Ground State" the Tuesday after so it looks like a go for S4.

Thanks for the subtext reports Kar. Like everyone else, I'm loving them.:D

Dannyblue

10-02-2003, 01:58 AM

I think AtS draws many, many, many parallels between B/A and unhealthy relationships. (Like "Loyalty", where Angel says he used to think love had to be painful, and make you miserable, but now he knew better.) AtS was all about Angel pulling away from Buffy. Well, until some time in season 4.

starlet2367

10-02-2003, 08:45 AM

What really interested me about In The Dark was the last scene, with Angel declaring that the Gem wasn't his redemption, and that he needed to stay in the dark to help the folks who needed a champion there.

Contrast that to this season's sellout, in which Angel not only helps the people who live in the day, he *is* a person who lives in the day.

Kinda makes you realize just how far down the path they've traveled, doesn't it?

Kelley

psychofilly

10-02-2003, 08:55 AM

It makes you realize that Joss has failed his own concept. Not because it couldn't work, but because he just doesn't care anymore, I guess.

starlet2367

10-03-2003, 08:07 PM

Oh, lordy, children, it was Rm w/a vu, one of my all-time faves. "You're the biggest pain I've ever met!" Wah! How do I love this ep? Cordy-as-cactus. Cordy-as-broody babe. Cordy as regaining-my-power bitch. Angel's hands on her face! Wah!

Kar! Where's that subtext thread, babe? I'm drooling just thinking about it!

Kel

QueenC

10-03-2003, 08:53 PM

There really was quite a lot of touching in this episode wasn't there!? ;)

And I have tos ay that I have never really been one who thought DB was all that hot -- thought he and CC looked really good together, but never been one with the drool -- but tonite I really noticed how good he looked in these early episodes!

Lori

LaLa247

10-03-2003, 09:03 PM

Agreed, Lori. Boreanaz did look handsome in the early years- extremely handsome. It was brought out by those little smiles he did. Very nice.

Watching these episodes (Although I have them on DVD, but I digress) also makes me miss Doyle. A lot.

And then I wonder how it would've been if Xander had crossed over and not Wes. How it would've been different, if it would be better or worse, if C/X could've survived or if C/A would've taken over, if Xander would've kept his eye...then I get some Sprite.

Which ep comes next? Not IWRY, right? God, no.

Trillian

10-03-2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Which ep comes next? Not IWRY, right? God, no.

Think it's the whammy stick.:)

tojoson

10-03-2003, 09:44 PM

next up is sense ans sensativity, then bachelor party, IWRY is scheduled for next wednesday

Dannyblue

10-03-2003, 09:57 PM

Yeah, Monday it's "Sense and Sensitivity"...and episode I love for that one line alone. :lol: This is one of the season one eps I had on tape. And, you know what's sad? I watched the scene with The Line over and over again, but refused to admit it was because of any C/A factor. Nope, I was watching for...uh, for...the comedy! Yeah, that's it.

You know what I really liked about RWAV. Okay, they seemed to be going for C/D. Doyle's feelings were obvious. But, in the last scene, when the goons break in with the guns, Cordy is standing between Angel and Doyle. She could've gone either way. But whose side did she immediately attach herself to? Starts with an A.

I don't think I noticed that the first time. All C/A-ness tended to pass me by since I was kinda pulling for Cordy to be with Doyle if it would keep her away from Angel. I think that's why I don't remember Cordy and Angel interacting as much in these early episodes as they actually did.

Boy, watching these eps is fun! Especially with my C/A eyes open.

Penny Century

10-03-2003, 10:12 PM

Let's not forget "The Bachelor Party" and perhaps my own favorite deep-subtext line ever: those three little words, "You work, Pierce?" It's in the delivery -- the buffalo stance, the hooded eyes, the forced lightness of tone that poorly disguises the edge of menace. Boreanaz is good at that stuff. I remember being shocked at how good he could be.

You could see why Cordy didn't want to bring another date by the office, even if that didn't work well, either.

LaLa247

10-03-2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by tojoson
next up is sense ans sensativity, then bachelor party, IWRY is scheduled for next wednesday YES! My ass is workin' on Wednesday. Woo!

My C/A radar kicks in during Expecting. Lots and lots of moments there- especially in the gun club with the whole can of "whup ass" Angel brings. He's so pissed this dude violated Cordy...oh, yes- memories...

tojoson

10-03-2003, 11:30 PM

i loved the part where doyle is complaining about cordy being in angels room, and mentions angel's forehead, the way angel reaches up and touches his forehead, and the look he gets on his face.

it's the small stuff like that that MADE (yah-past tense)) the show great

Penny Century

10-04-2003, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
Really weird OT question: does anyone know when Charisma got her rosary tattoo? Last episode they showed her bare wrist prominently. Now she’s got the bulky bracelets.
Don't know the exact date, but she definitely had it by the Season 2 winter hiatus. It showed up prominently in her early-2001 In Style spread.

Dannyblue

10-04-2003, 11:52 PM

She was waering quite a lot of wrist gear in "I Fall To Pieces". I noticed when she was making "recycled" coffee at the end. Don't know if it was to cover the tatoo, or it was a fashion statement.

I hear Holly Marie Combs (from CHARMED) also has a wrist tatoo, and they cover it with make-up. So that could be what they are doing with CC when she's not wearing the wrist gear.

LaLa247

10-07-2003, 04:51 PM

Two things I noticed about "The Bachelor Party":

This is really the first time we see Cordy evolving on camera, growing bored with her usual type and instead wanting a more adventurous, dangerous guy- like Angel.

During the scene where Doyle is re-enacting his fight scene in the office and Cordy walks in on him, you can really see Charisma laughing, the camera catching her shoulders shaking and you even hear her- it's cute.

Dannyblue

10-07-2003, 11:10 PM

Here's something I noticed. In the opening scene of BP, when Cordy comes into Angel's office all dressed up and looking fine, Angel

1. Takes one look at Cordy and jumps up out of his seat. Not stands. Jumps up. Like, "Whoa! Look at the hottie!"

2. While Cordy and Doyle are doing there usual bantering thing, Angel's looking Cordy up and down, with this almost-grin on his face. And, I swear, that was the first appearance of his goofy, "Staring at Cordy" smile.

Then, of course, there's him getting ready to give her date the third degree. And notice how, after Cordy and her date leave, while Doyle's talking, Angel's looking out the office window after Cordy. Then, he looks at Doyle, then looks back out the window.

Loved it! :)

starlet2367

10-08-2003, 07:42 AM

I'd forgotten how much I loved Bachelor Party. Harry's entrance is perfect...and priceless. GQ did the pole-axed look so well. I love the way the writers misdirected us by making us think that Doyle had some big, shady past he was trying to escape, when nothing could be farther from the truth. I was just sorry we never saw Harry again; she's a fantastic character, and that scene at the end when she gives the ring back to "hon-bun" made me go, "Aw!" Of course, her priceless, "One word, Alan Francis Doyle, and I'll eat *your* brains!" totally cracked me up.

And, ooooh! Smell the subtext! I'd forgotten what a roving eye Angel had. Could he have given Cordy the once...twice...thrice-over any more? LOL And like Penny said, his grilling of Pierce was fantastic.

I have to say, Pierce bored the crap out of me. And I was delighted to see Cordy equally bored. And her realization that her life was ruined b/c she wanted guys with substance had me ROFL. God, I love her.

Angel's response was equally delightful; DB got that "what a kid!" look, combined with affection and exasperation and more than a little pride. Cordy was like his spoiled toddler--he loved her to distraction and at the same time she annoyed the hell out of him and everyone in the room. LOL!

Oh, and Sense and Sensitivity! "You can be a rainbow, not a painbow," complete with air quotes, won me over as an Angel fan. After that I lined up at the TV impatiently waiting for every ep to air.

Kel

Dannyblue

10-08-2003, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by starlet2367
Oh, and Sense and Sensitivity! "You can be a rainbow, not a painbow," complete with air quotes, won me over as an Angel fan. After that I lined up at the TV impatiently waiting for every ep to air.

Oh, I loved that too. Although Angel had won me over jumping into the wrong car in "City Of". His growling, "Dammit!" is priceless...and often appears in my fics.

And my favorite scene from "Sense and Sensitivity".

ANGEL: The talking stick, it's cursed alright.

CORDY: (Looks at Doyle.) There's a stick that talks? (Looks back at Angel.)

ANGEL: (Pauses for a moment just to gaze into Cordelia's face. Smiling gently, he inches closer to her.) Cordelia, do you have any idea just how precious you are...

And Doyle, being a spoil sport--and maybe a little jealous--interrupts.

Notice also that, during most of the talk outside the PD, Angel's looking at Cordy, with an occasional glance at Doyle.

And why did it take me a whole 'nother year to admit my C/A-ness. I was already leaning that way when this ep aired. Darned denial!

LaLa247

10-08-2003, 10:46 AM

When does "Sense and Sensivity" air?

Today is IWRY. One ep I will miss.

DamnSkippy

10-08-2003, 11:06 AM

La, "Sense and Sensitivity" already aired. Monday I think.

Dannyblue

10-08-2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
When does "Sense and Sensivity" air?

Today is IWRY. One ep I will miss.

Yep, it aired on Monday. Luckily, you'll probably be able to catch it in weekend syndication in a couple of weeks.

The AtS syndication schedule has me all confused.

TNT shows season 1 every weekday.

TNT shows season 4 on Tuesday night.

On the weekend, my local station shows a season 1 episode, followed by a season 3 episode.

That's a whole lotta Angel. Poor season two's been left out so far.

Oh, I thought this was ironic. Over the weekend, my local station shows season one's "Lonely Hearts", in which Cordy tells Doyle that, if the visions were her gift, she'd return it. Then, right after that, they showed season three's "That Vision Thing", in which Cordy is willing to suffer way more than Doyle ever did in order to keep the visions. I still think showing eps this way is kinda nuts, but it really highlights Cordy's change and growth to see the eps back-to-back.

tojoson

10-08-2003, 08:09 PM

on the weekends, they know that a lot of people won't watch the same show on 2 different nights what with other shows, nights out, and such, so they will run saturdays as s-1,s-2,s-3,s-4, and on sundays they will run s-3,s-4,s-1,s-2

ETA:
i watched IWRY today and something struck me, everyone considers angel the tragic hero and champion because he gave up everything he wanted to save buffy, even the conduits to the PTB stopped calling him a lower-being--well and good, but why do a lot of people have a problem with cordy as a higher being, and hero and champion when she did the exact same thing in birthday

jealousy?

littlelorie

10-09-2003, 05:14 PM

Was it hard to watch "Hero" today or was it just me? I love that episode and I watched it anyway, but knowing that Glenn is gone and how amazing he was in this episode was kind of hard. At least Doyle went out with a bang. Instead of going in a coma.

LaLa247

10-09-2003, 05:44 PM

I was thinking the same thing, Lorie. It was great that Glenn got to go out in such a fabulous way. He was the hero, and he made the big sacrifice (Which in retrospect, makes Angel's sacrifice in IWRY- which was moaned about for a good part in this ep- seem so very trivial).

The last two minutes also made me tear up, dammit. Just the silence after his "Am I done?" was so upsetting. I didn't like "Hero" the first time around, and now I think it's a great episode.

Syn

10-09-2003, 05:54 PM

I definitely got teared up watching Hero today. I not only miss Doyle, but Glenn as well. And I so would have been behind a Cordy/Doyle pairing back then and am still slightly infatuated by it now. Though the C/A subtexter in me still sighs when they turn to each other in comfort.

*sigh* This was a much better episode than I remembered. And it makes me mad that they Jasmine-wanked Doyle's dying act. Just doesn't seem right...

Bertha Blue

10-09-2003, 06:15 PM

Man, I miss Glenn every day. They didn't really fanwick Doyle's act out of existence did they? You mean to tell me that Doyle was manipulated into dying and passing along the visions to Cordy? What a crock. I don't believe half of the stuff about Jasmine affecting the last four years of the FG's life. They do have free will after all.

starlet2367

10-09-2003, 06:16 PM

Oh, I missed Hero? Man! I watched it on DVD when I got my S1 set and sniffled. Then I watched it the night we heard GQ died and bawled like a baby. It's become one of my favorite eps. I remember being completely shocked that they killed Doyle. I almost stopped watching the show after that. LOL

Kel

Dannyblue

10-09-2003, 10:31 PM

I watched the whole episode twice, then I watched the last half again. Teared up all three times. And I cursed at how brilliant that ending was. If they wanted to break my heart, they did a good job. I remember crying when I saw this the first time but, it had been so long since I'd seen it since, I forgot why. Well, this brought it all back.

And I always liked Doyle, but I think this episode started the AtS tradition of making me like a character more than ever in the episode in which they die or leave. (Like Gavin, Lindsey, Darla, Merle, etc.)

Persephone

10-10-2003, 04:21 AM

Oddly enough, Hero hit me the exact same way it did the first time around. I thought the lead-up story was heavy-handed and the IWRY references were out of place with the true heroism of Doyle's sacrifice. Oh, but the last ten minutes choked me up, just like the first time. What an ending, and all the more poignant because of Glenn. The video ending... dear me.

The episode was all the more touching because of the C/A hug. There was nothing remotely UST about it...it felt like two lost little children in a dark, dark world, clinging desperately to each other, knowing they had no one else. And somehow, that was perfectly perfect and perfectly heartwrenching.

I look forward to Parting Gifts next. But then again, I am quite the Wes fan, and have enjoyed his journey/transformation as I enjoyed Cordy's. For a long time, I was resentful of the increasing cast ruining the "trinity" aspect of Angel, Cordy, and Wes. It seemed like such a great balance, and I think the cast shot of the three of them at the end of the opening credits might well remain my favourite. I think I've come around to the foursome with Gunn though... not sure, since they've never properly understood or utilized Gunn and never really tried. But I'll save those comments for later reruns. :D

LaLa247

10-10-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Persephone

The episode was all the more touching because of the C/A hug. There was nothing remotely UST about it...it felt like two lost little children in a dark, dark world, clinging desperately to each other, knowing they had no one else. And somehow, that was perfectly perfect and perfectly heartwrenching. And then came the twisting of the knife when they're watching the Doyle video- apart. Cordy's sitting, Angel's standing over her, both looking completely lost. We've seen Angel tear up for the first time over something that wasn't Buffy-related, and we see Cordy's eyes a bit hardened. Kinda a hint that she was going to have to be the strong one for both of them.

It was a nice turning point for both.

cordy_n_angel

10-10-2003, 09:31 PM

I was re-watching "Expecting" and just picked up on the fact that I really think that was Cordy's first time. The way she acts before and after really makes me believe that she had never been that far before. I mean honestly, there was never an inclination in her BtVS days that she wasn't a virgin. Anybody else agree?

jujube1013

10-10-2003, 09:38 PM

i've always believed that that was her first time, i mean she went out with xander for how long and she loved him but they never had sex. you can be a flirt w/o screwing around, i know i was.and she did seem really nervous and inexperienced.

LaLa247

10-10-2003, 10:17 PM

I do think a lot of Xander's teasing about the sleeping round thing in high school was just that- teasing. He and Willow did know her since they were young (Kindergarden? Third grade?). I also get the feeling the boys in the locker room may have embellished their encounters wth her simply because she didn't put out.

And hey, if she didn't sleep with Xander, the guy she dated for a year, and who she said she loved...

Dannyblue

10-11-2003, 10:11 AM

And yet another character I liked better on AtS than BtVS. I didn't like Wesley on BtVS at all...not that I was supposed to. And I wasn't thrilled to see him in "Parting Gifts", because I was kinda hoping it would just be Angel and Cordy for a while, despite my C/A denial. But, after PG, I started to fall in love with Wes. I don't think the character really clicked until "I've Got You Under My Skin." I barely remember the episode, but I remember Wes standing in a doorway somewhere and thinking, "He might be alright."

Watching PG, he just cracked me up. He was so adorable. "I'm gonna thrash you to within an inch of your life. And then I'm gonna take that inch!" It's really weird comparing that Wes to season 4 Wes.

Florrie

10-11-2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
It’s been so long since I’ve seen the party scene. Y’all are right about how he just lights up when he sees her. Like how he picks her unseen voice out of the crowd and noise. Can recognize her talking, her scent and her long hair from the back.

Subtext, by KarKar :)

So, we can add your whole report to the site?

Okay, so I just did anyway.

But, hey, where's the rest? :(

Izzychase

10-11-2003, 10:22 PM

I agree with Persephone. The brief Angel/Cordy/Wes family at the very end of S1, from TSILA right to the beginning of S2 just seemed like such a perfect fit, that I sort of resented the intrusion of other characters, until I learned to love Lorne, Fred, and Gunn as well. I mean, with the Angel/Wes/Cordy family, they were finally the Champion, the Seer, and the Watcher. It seemed like a perfect trinity of BtVS outcasts that came from different walks of life to save souls and their own in the process.

*sigh* I miss S1 and early S2, before Angel's 'beige' period. For me, those will always be the golden days of AtS.

Iz.

starlet2367

10-14-2003, 05:36 PM

Ah, Expecting. Add me to the list of folks who think Cordy was a virgin (albeit a technical one [g]) before this ep. For such a confident girl, she was extremely passive in the shots they showed, like she was uncertain of herself, nervous, and waiting for Wilson to show her the way.

Which is what makes her situation the next morning so much suckier.

As always, I LMAO at Wes at the beginning of this ep. The ax in the wall, the "By doxies, I didn't mean...", his response when Angel told him to see what was inside Cordelia. The Word-Puzzle. Gah! Classic! And, wow, can that boy shoot straight! Shades of Wes to come!

For all his bitching about her, when she's in real trouble, he's right there by her side. I love Wes in this ep; he's like her bratty brother. He can pick on Cordy all he wants, but if someone hurts her? They're dead meat. Or frozen, as the case may be.

I did have to laugh when he was facing the Land of the Lost demon at the end, though. Putting up his dukes and swaggering around. This is the guy who gets knocked out in almost every fight he's in. Heck, Cordy knocked him out! LOL! That boy's got huevos!

And Angel.... It's eps like this one that make his response to Cordy's pregnancy in S4 seem so out-of-character. The look he gives her when he sees her in the bed for the first time, so hugely pregnant. The promise that they'll take care of it, and she's not alone. "Are you the boyfriend? No, I'm family." You could see how much he enjoyed beating the crap out of Wilson and his gang, and he left the last little special treatment to Wilson. For some reason, watching him beat the crap out of those guys always makes me cheer.

And the scene at the end, where Wes and Angel are fighting over keeping Cordy's space clean? The ambiguously gay duo! Woo!

That little look Angel shoots Cor that clearly says, "He's driving me effing insane. PLEASE come back to work." And when she says she's got the part if she lets the guy knock her up? LOL The look on his face when he realizes she's just psyched them out? Respect, humor, admiration, affection. DB nailed that shot. And the little smile he and Cordy share about Wes's "allergies." Too, too cute.

Ah, yes. The good old days.

Kel

LaLa247

10-14-2003, 06:07 PM

They cut out the "Get her back to bed" line. I have beef.

Originally posted by starlet2367
And Angel.... It's eps like this one that make his response to Cordy's pregnancy in S4 seem so out-of-character. Was just discussing this with my ma. He seemed so damn concerned for her, yet he looked like he had NO clue how to handle her. He looked almost as helpless as she did in that scene, and Boreanaz sold it.

And the little smile he and Cordy share about Wes's "allergies." Too, too cute. I loooooove that look! Now I'm depressed over the suck that is now. Sigh.

LadyJubilee

10-14-2003, 08:26 PM

I love that he KNEW Cordy hadn't revealed any secrets.

KeyserSoze

10-14-2003, 08:40 PM

I was watching RRK's episode of Las Vegas last night (which had a small part for Harry 'The Mayor' Groener) and the cute guy who played the magician looked sooo familiar to me, but I couldn't place his face.

Then today? Boom! On TNT impregnating Cordy.

It was almost as weird as when the guy who played Owen in NKOBOTFD showed up on BtVS on FX, CSI, and Monk all in a span of 2 days.

I love syndication!

QueenC

10-14-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by KeyserSoze
It was almost as weird as when the guy who played Owen in NKOBOTFD showed up on BtVS on FX, CSI, and Monk all in a span of 2 days.

And, a bit OT, he was also on ESPN tonite! He plays the quarterback on ESPN's Playmakers series.

Lori :)

Dannyblue

10-14-2003, 11:34 PM

Season 1 Wesley is so adorable! I remember having such a problem with him back then, when the eps first aired, but I don't know why now. He was just so cute.

And, of course, the C/A was priceless in "Expecting". I mean, Angel just does not like the idea of Cordy dating, does he. And when Serena let it slip that Cordy was seeing Wilson, Cordy looked so guilty. Like she'd been caught.

And Angel wanted so badly to hurt Wilson. He was kinda glad he didn't get the answers he wanted right away. Seeing him put his foot on Wilson's throat probably made me happier than it should.

And how Angel reacted when Cordy was late? Yeah, he had good reason to go charging over to her apartment, but he didn't know that. Most people would have had Wes's attitude, at least for another hour or two. But Angel goes over and breaks into her place. That's the way!

Also, Cordy was creeping me out. The way she went from freaking one minute, to maternal the next, back to freaking, back to maternal. (shiver)

KarKar

10-16-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Florrie
Subtext, by KarKar :)

So, we can add your whole report to the site?

Okay, so I just did anyway.

But, hey, where's the rest? :(
My VCR kind of had conniptions. :( Just ask PC who's been kindly giving me the Big O updates.

I just got the DVD's though and can email you new documents if you'd like for S1.

Penny Century

10-16-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
My VCR kind of had conniptions. :( Just ask PC who's been kindly giving me the Big O updates.
Trah.

And this leaves me an opening for another random plug: Dudes. DUDES. The Big O. Sunday nights, 11/10 Central. The Cartoon Network. It's more Angel than Angel. This season, literally. Join us. Jooooooiiiin uuuussssss....

Florrie

10-16-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
I just got the DVD's though and can email you new documents if you'd like for S1.

Yes, please :)

But only if you have time (and all those polite, meaningless mumblings.)

Bullocks

10-16-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Penny Century
Trah.

And this leaves me an opening for another random plug: Dudes. DUDES. The Big O. Sunday nights, 11/10 Central. The Cartoon Network. It's more Angel than Angel. This season, literally. Join us. Jooooooiiiin uuuussssss....

To quote my best friend, "Dude, what is the Big 'O' what did I miss out on some new sexual position or something?"

Cause really, I wanna know what it is. Is it coming on this Sunday night? Cause honestly, if I wanna see it, this is the weekend for me to do it, cause my roommate's left town and I get free reign over tv. No more Olsen twins!!! *laughs fanatically*

KarKar

10-16-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Bullocks
To quote my best friend, "Dude, what is the Big 'O' what did I miss out on some new sexual position or something?"

Cause really, I wanna know what it is. Is it coming on this Sunday night? Cause honestly, if I wanna see it, this is the weekend for me to do it, cause my roommate's left town and I get free reign over tv. No more Olsen twins!!! *laughs fanatically*
It's an anime on Cartoon Network by the same team that does Cowboy Bebop and Batman Beyond. That said, it does have the jazzy, moody feel of CB and the clean, minimal lines of BB with a big side of Goth.

Originally they only ran 13 episodes ending with a cliffhanger and poeple HOWLED. Based on the response, CN put up the money for another season. It's currently one of the best if not THE best rated show on the Sunday night schedule.

Check out these links:

http://www.paradigm-city.com/

http://www.mokuzen.net/roger/

http://www.rdorothywayneright.com/

http://www.animejump.com/index.php but the boards are temporarily down

http://adultswimunleashed.com/info/bigoshows.html

http://www.adultswim.com/

Penny Century

10-17-2003, 12:06 AM

Wow. Kar has links!

You might also want to check out the Adult Swim thread (http://www.stranger-things.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11521) in General. Kar and I have our weekly Big O gab in there. (Warning: spoilerrific.)

Penny Century

10-18-2003, 01:48 AM

*bink*

Found another site to add to Kar's list:

Christmas Tree 1, Giant Mecha 0 (http://doroshii.com/)

It's pretty sweet.

(And I'll just let this thread return to on-topicness at this point.)

LaLa247

10-24-2003, 04:21 PM

"War Zone" is airing now, and the demon brothel still makes me giggle, as well as Cordy's various reactions towards David Nabbit ("I was flustered!").

And am I the only one who found this face:
<img src= "http://www.totallydavidboreanazuk.com/S1%20CAPS/Warzone/images/zone-029.jpg">

-really cute? I just remember the first time I saw the ep and he did that smirk, and I just thought how cool it was that he was smirking. LOL I dunno...

Darla

10-24-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
And am I the only one who found this face: -really cute? I just remember the first time I saw the ep and he did that smirk, and I just thought how cool it was that he was smirking. LOL I dunno... Haven't seen that ep in ages... but I just clicked on this thread, saw the pic and started squealing. LOL! SO CUTE! It looks... goofy. :) Early signs of Dork!Angel, I assume. :)

KarKar

10-24-2003, 05:15 PM

And touching! Lots of touching! Not to mention that weirdly endearing scene up front re: Angel playing around with Cordelia's head by leaving money around.

DamnSkippy

10-24-2003, 05:22 PM

Can someone who's good at analyzing structure and meanings of a show tell me what purpose the scene in the park with Cordy and Wes talking about prostituting herself to Nabbit served? I like the scene, but it seems odd to be there and I don't see how it relates to the episode.

LaLa247

10-24-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
Not to mention that weirdly endearing scene up front re: Angel playing around with Cordelia's head by leaving money around. Angel's giddy, wide smile is what makes that scene for me. It's so cute, and it's a sign that he likes seeing Cordy go a bit kooky over the dough. Very cute (Although, I wished we coulda seen Cordy searching for the money and Angel giggling or whatever the hell he would do in one ep...).

ETA: The only purpose the prostitution scene served (in my opinion) is to show that Cordy misses her old lifestyle, but is ultimately happy where she is. Even though she's poor. And possibly unhappy. And...yeah.

KarKar

10-24-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
ETA: The only purpose the prostitution scene served (in my opinion) is to show that Cordy misses her old lifestyle, but is ultimately happy where she is. Even though she's poor. And possibly unhappy. And...yeah.
I think that it was also to point to her changing priorities. In Sunnydale snagging a rich guy was very important to her.

Here she's given a golden opportunity to nab a billionaire who's taken with her and could make life easy for her. No one little apartments, buying things on sale, etc. Things could've been even more opulant than with her parents.

However as an adult and someone who is realizing that there are other things in life than comfort, she's deciding instead to stay in the trenches, meat lockers (love that little exchange between them), etc. with Angel making a difference.

Angelia

10-24-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
(Although, I wished we coulda seen Cordy searching for the money and Angel giggling or whatever the hell he would do in one ep...).

Someone actually wrote a short fic called The Search is On (http://www.stranger-things.net/justfic/index/a/angelschilde/search.htm) where that kinda happens. I thought it was cute.

Watching these eps again after so long I realized I missed alot of things the first time around, like that smirk Angel gives in that pic you posted LaLa. I love that entire first scene with all three of them at David Nabbit's party. Watching Wes trying all the appetizers reminds me of the party scene in "She". I also love the part where Cordy's patching Angel up and asks if he wants to see the check again and later before he leaves he says he does.

Dannyblue

10-25-2003, 09:40 AM

I thought the "Cordy patching up Angel" scenes didn't start until season 2, except for the one in "City Of". So I squealed like a little girl when I saw it in "War Zone". And, of course, Cordy was so worried about him. Every time he winced, she winced. So sweet.

And, again, we get the "Angel smilin/grinning at Cordy because she's just so darned cute/adorable/endearing/beautiful" moment. Gotta love those. I've read fanfic written back then, and so many fic writers seemed convinced Angel was annoyed at her most of the time, that the sound of her voice got on his nerves, and that he only tolerated her because he didn't think she could survive on her own? What show were they watchin? It's obvious Angel cared about her, and enjoyed being around her.

And I'm still surprised by how much they interracted that first season. Even back then, they were having thier little talks, and Cordy was trying to help him open up.

Dannyblue

10-29-2003, 08:33 AM

First, I'll whine about how I haven't seen TSILA since it last aired, in repeats, on the WB before season 2 premiered. I remembered thinking about taping it, but I will still all, "You gotta be pretty obsessive to tape a TV show," so I didn't. For which I spent the next 3 years kicking myself.

In "To Shanshu in LA", for the first time, we have the classic, "Angel freaks out because Cordy's in trouble" scene. I mean, we got some mild freakage in "Expecting". (How many bosses break into their employee's homes because they are a little late?) But this was the panic-freakage that became so familiar in later seasons. :D

And, of course, the classic hospital scene. The one that launched a thousand (or more) C/A 'shippers. Well, except me, because I was still in denial at the time. But I remember my heart doing that warm, clenchy thing even back then, and it was no different now.

And when Cordy woke up, and Angel looked so happy and relieved. And in her apartment, when she gave him his blood and told him he shouldn't be embarrassed to drink in front of her and Wes. (I love the thumbs up she gave him when he took the cup.) Basically, there were scads of wonderful "Awwww" moments.

Finally, I'm liking Lindsey more the second time around. Back then, I pretty much wrote him off like Angel did. But, now, I want to take him, shake him, and say, "Look, baby doll. This isn't for you, no matter how evil you try to tell yourself you are."

And here's a trivia question? Exactly how many, "Angel at Cordy's bedside" scenes have there been anyway?

LaLa247

10-29-2003, 11:09 AM

lol "Baby doll"?

I just enjoyed that scene between Angel and Cordy in the hospital because he seriously got choked up when he was telling her he needed her back. He was about to cry (Aww).

And Lindsey...I miss Lindsey. Don't miss Lilah so much.

QueenC

10-29-2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
And here's a trivia question? Exactly how many, "Angel at Cordy's bedside" scenes have there been anyway?

OK, well, we have Expecting, TSILA, TVT, Offspring, Birthday, RoF...

I know I'm probably missing some. Anyone else?

Lori :)

brahmsviolin

10-29-2003, 08:17 PM

I haven't caught any of the reruns until today - Angel and the gang's first intro to Caritas. What I had forgotten is that Lorne, of then, was flamboyent, but also seemed to be a lot wiser than he ultimately became. It seems to me they shifted more to the laughs and let go some of Lorne's smarts.

tojoson

10-29-2003, 10:54 PM

one thing bugged me, when angel and cordy were talking about angel seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and cordy says he will make it, then she says' and i'll be with you to the end', well, cordy doesn't lie, but jos made a liar out of her.

Darla

10-30-2003, 05:38 AM

rolandro

11-05-2003, 12:05 PM

Cordy telling Doyle 'Secrets are bad!' after she slaps him. That AMAZING smile when she tells him to ask her out.

Cordy at the breakfast table telling Wes that after a hard night's work of fighting evil they get eggs. The little family scene. The simple fact Angel honors her by cooking, he's grateful for her help and (unexpected) friendship, Cordy's girlish enthusiasm as she eats.

Cordy playing Angel and Wes about allowing a producer to let him impregnate her with his demon master's seed to get a role in his commercial, and then telling them that she absolutely trusts them with her life - and this was new for her! (Which is more than one can say for her creator. . . but we don't go there). This scene really clued me into who she was on many levels. Playful. Strong. Funny. Grateful - but most of all, a very lonely girl. At least until this point in her life.

Shansu - freaking ALL of it (Okay- I've got the DVDs)

rolandro

11-05-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by tojoson
one thing bugged me, when angel and cordy were talking about angel seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and cordy says he will make it, then she says' and i'll be with you to the end', well, cordy doesn't lie, but jos made a liar out of her.

Thanks, tojoson. I knew she said that, somewhere! And that really bugs me, too, that she's been so badly mistreated. Also . . . I've been thinking about this for awhile, but it's like she was the first person to tell him he was good because he was good, and not just doing good because he had so much to atone for (or that he was a soulmate). She was his first bright light, the one that clued him in to the possibility he could actually be redeemed and 'shanshued'.

Dannyblue

11-05-2003, 01:00 PM

rolandro, you hit a lot of the hit many of the high points for me. I'm one of those people who wasn't the biggest Cordy fan in the world, and absolutely did not want her on AtS. The character started winning me over in "City Of", and kept winning me over a little more every episode until, by TSILA, she was one of my favorite characters (it was always a toss-up between her and Angel) on AtS or BtVS. And that's because we kept getting glimpses of who she really was behind the tactless comments and and self-centered attitude. She was kind, caring, smart (if I read another fic where the writer implies she's dumb likes it's a proven fact...) dedicated, and strong.

I really don't understand those people who just can't understand how she changed so much. When someone says that, I just assume they can't have watched season 1 or 2, because the natural growth of her character is all right there and makes perfect sense.

And now that I've been able to see all of season one for the first time since it aired on the WB, I'm a happy camper. :D

rolandro

11-06-2003, 12:53 AM

When Cordy was a Scooby she admits she's pretty good at standardized tests. Her SATs get her into, among other places, Columbia. No, Cordy was not a ditz. HOWEVER, in BtVS, being a brain wasn't an advantage to being the head Cordette. "I'm good at hiding that." she says, although I'm probably paraphrasing here.

People forget that Cordy was reliable as a Scooby (she had that nice car) - and did a fair amount of ass-kissing towards Willow, poster child for uncoolness, while she was dating Xander.

I was thinking about the eggs tag again. I was wondering how many times she fell asleep at that table before Wes appeared on the scene. How many times she got up and left, leaving sleeping Angel with his chin on his chest and his finger in his book, or maybe Angel setting her up with a pillow and blanket on the couch. Dozens of times, waking up there, fully clothed and unbitten. That simple scene, Cordy hungry as a horse (didn't you just want to spoon feed that mouth?), filling Wes in about life with Angel, was a beautiful moment. And when did I get to be an old softee?

rolandro

11-06-2003, 01:00 AM

Oh for, chrissakes, that's what Maker's Mark at 10:30 at night will do to me. What I wanted to say up there was, Cordy's sarcasm was altogether too sharp to come from the mouth of a person of even ordinary intellect. It was the first clue that nothing gets past this person. DO NOT MESS WITH HER.

I had a better way to say this, too. Another drink, and I think I'll have it!

LaLa247

11-06-2003, 06:00 PM

Tonight's ep was "Darla".

I love this ep (Mainly 'cause I liked Darla).

And it still cracks me up when Gunn is calmly eating that sandwich while explaining that he and Wes broke into Darla's apartment; and when Darla smacks Angelus' chest after he laughs at Dru calling her "grandma".

The flashbacks were very good, and are something I miss about the show.

Dannyblue

11-07-2003, 10:29 AM

Ah, "Darla".

This wasn't the episode that made me a C/Aer; that process began in season 1, with me refusing to notice. But it was dring "Darla" that I admitted, for the first time, that I was a C/Aer. (Although I didn't know I was admitting I was a C/Aer, because I wasn't on the 'Net at the time and didn't know that's what we were called.) It was during "Darla" that I finally jumped out of denial and fully embraced the fact that I wanted Cordy and Angel to be a couple. Then what happened? The Beige Arc! Grrrrr!

Anyway, it's fun re-watching "Darla" and remembering my "epiphany".

And that moment! "You're not alone," Cordy says. And Angel just looks at her for a looooooong time. Even when Wesley starts talking, Angel's attention is still on Cordelia.

Melty, melty.

LaLa247

11-07-2003, 04:49 PM

Tonight's "The Shroud of Rahmon".

I LOVE Angel's reaction to Cordy's hair. He just seemed so damn pleased with it- very pleasantly surprised (Although it took him ten days to notice it).

Gunn punching Angel and telling him not to hit him again just made me laugh.

Finally, I stopped paying attention about half into the ep (Never caught it the first time around, and have yet to watch it on DVD)- why is Cordy acting all weird with her teeth and the dummy?

SamIAm

11-07-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
why is Cordy acting all weird with her teeth and the dummy?

Nothing was ever offered as a reason. "Just because."

LaLa247

11-07-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by SamIAm
Nothing was ever offered as a reason. "Just because." So, it wasn't the shroud? We should just assume she got high beforehand?

SamIAm

11-07-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
So, it wasn't the shroud? We should just assume she got high beforehand?

No, I guess it was the shroud, but why she alone reacted to it by turning into a babbling idiot wasn't explained. There was never anything that even said the shroud affected different people differently. It was "just because."

DamnSkippy

11-07-2003, 06:53 PM

The shroud made people crazy and there are many "types" of crazy. Cordy was the goofy, big toothed, klepto kinda crazy. I guess Wes was the bumbling, clumsy, forgetful kind.

rolandro

11-09-2003, 12:24 PM

Ah. . . bedside. Angel angsty because it meant in almost every circumstance that vision girl took a bullet for him, and took it well. They may not be soulmates, C/A, or whatever, but they have that one-of-a -kind of love and understanding that comes from diving into the same foxhole when the shit starts.

Angel - look at the STRENGTH of this woman!

Angel - Ok, and she's beautiful, even with a head full of visions and insane.

Cordy - I hate being scared and weak, but I'll tell you what, when I am? I sure love seeing him there. I don't deserve that look he gives me. OR I do, I don't care, but I'm really glad I'm getting it, because I need it right now.

My assumption for 1-episode Cordy is that to get her out of the coma they have to restore her to her fully human self and strip out her visions wiring, just to be sure that what they get back is Cordy and not some new PTB trick. There's a whole season of new stories right there. But I digress. Anyway, extrapolate this out - no redemption for Angel until the big apocalypse in oh, say 2043. Angel is still his unnatural 24, Cordy is now 65. Of course our Cordy is still strong, and still gorgeous, and fit - hell she teaches martial arts workouts down at the 'Y' to college-aged women who weren't lucky enough to become automatic slayerettes (just like her. Cordy's response? Big Whoop! Kick ass anyway).

Angel Invest. has had maybe 4 vision girls since her, but Angel still comes over to see her with the big smile and the big non-beating heart, and something beautiful for her to wear. (Oh, and by the way? Dermalogica came up with a brilliant new sunscreen product for vamps, all un-natural ingredients, "to keep you looking your non-flammable best.") Angel walks into the gym just as Cordy pins some 24 year-old stud to the wall with a 14th c. broadsword to his throat.

Cordy knows Angel's there without turning around - she can smell him just like she can smell money. They hug,and they know. They've been in foxholes together, that totally remarkable unbreakable bond.

Cordy - Not a vision girl anymore.
Angel - Uh Uh. You've always been my vision girl.

There's lots of kinds of big bad love out there.

LaLa247

11-18-2003, 12:37 AM

Completely late with this but I just realized how Gunn-centric "The Thin Dead Line" was. He was in charge here, and he was running the show...that is, until Cordy raised her voice in demanding they take Wes to the hospital. ;)

Dannyblue

11-18-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Completely late with this but I just realized how Gunn-centric "The Thin Dead Line" was. He was in charge here, and he was running the show...that is, until Cordy raised her voice in demanding they take Wes to the hospital. ;)

I had the same reaction, LaLa. I was surprised by how much Gunn there was in this ep, and how much his character was on display. And he looked very cute, I might add.

And here's one of my favorite Gunn quotes. When Anne seems clueless as to why the police would stop Gunn and his friends, he says, "Because we'll be the ones walking while black." That one line illuminated the issue as well as any long, drawn out monologue about discrimination could have.

And I loved the murky end. Yeah, they stopped the zombie cops. But the implication is that, though they were evil, they'd also put a stop to the rapes and murders that took place in that part of town every day. So, by getting rid of the mystical evil, they cleared the way for good old human evil to move back in.

You know, when I first saw this ep, it didn't thrill me. It was sort of a filler, gimicky thing. But, really, there's a lot more to it than I gave it credit for.

Also, notice Cordy's putting Angel in his place at the end. I wasn't online at the time, but I wonder if this is what some fans mean when they say Cordy should have tried harder to save Angel from himself during his Beige Period. Personally, even though I wanted the group back together, I was kinda cheering my girl on.

Syn

11-18-2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Completely late with this but I just realized how Gunn-centric "The Thin Dead Line" was. He was in charge here, and he was running the show...that is, until Cordy raised her voice in demanding they take Wes to the hospital.

And did you see his sparks with Anne? Not to mention all the Ho!Yay! with Wesley. It was so lovely back in the day, was it not? I liked this episode more now than I did when I first watched it. Not even the over-used zombies plot could bog it down much. And hey...Wes got his yearly injury! :)

I've even wanked the reason he wasn't hurt last season: he was injured twice in season one (Faith torture and the explosion), therefore he built up credit and took a year off. See? Its all in the wank.

LaLa247

11-18-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
And he looked very cute, I might add. Pfft. He always looks cute, Danny. ;)

When Anne seems clueless as to why the police would stop Gunn and his friends, he says, "Because we'll be the ones walking while black." That one line illuminated the issue as well as any long, drawn out monologue about discrimination could have.
I'll just "word" ya here...

Tonight's "Reprise". I still love this ep, after all the times I've watched it. It's dark, has an extremely bleak outcome, and pretty much separates the Fang Gang completely (Cordy by her lonesome, Wes brooding at home, Gunn's God knows where, and Angel...)

That little phone convo between Wes and Cordy made me realize how much I liked the agency of Cordy, Wes, and Gunn. All three of them were genuine friends who had each other's backs (Until Fred came along), and they didn't need a big, ol' superhero to help them out. They could help the helpless and each other just fine by themselves.

While I thought Angel was a complete asshole throughout the entire episode (He manages a "sorry" to Kate but not one towards his friends?), I did feel for him in the end. Kinda. The battle is always gonna be lost, 'cause the good needs the evil to carry on. He can't win. Hell on Earth- that's something to think about.

OH- and The Scene between Angel and Darla? I STILL love it. Angel's all kinds of creepy with the forced kissing and throwing through the glass- it was perhaps the first time I became convinced that Angel and Angelus have to be the same person with none of that alter ego/Jekyll and Hyde shit.

And don't get me started about them falling directly on the pillows...impossible without jumping on the bed, I tell you!

tojoson

11-18-2003, 10:57 PM

i always got the impression that during this time angel was really missing the gang, but in his depressed mood, he was afraid that he would turn completely and hurt them, that's why he drove them away, and it looks like the solution to his problem, (as he thought it) was to attack the senior partners at their source, even though he figured it would finish him.
he didn't know if he would ever get his purpose back, and he was worried about the people around him so he decided to end it by attacking the senoir partners directly

LaLa247

11-19-2003, 04:06 PM

"Epiphany" is playing right now.

Anyone want to explain to me why he was crawling around in pain with no soul losing? Still baffles me.

Silly Gilly

11-19-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
"Epiphany" is playing right now.

Anyone want to explain to me why he was crawling around in pain with no soul losing? Still baffles me.

When I first saw this years ago I thought "groin pull." I didn't know why it was such a big deal back then that he had sex because I never watched BtVS.

Darla

11-19-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Anyone want to explain to me why he was crawling around in pain with no soul losing? Still baffles me. Epiphanies are painful?

Just guessing... *shrugs*

:)

Penny Century

11-19-2003, 04:14 PM

'Cause, ummmm, Standards and Practices expressly requires that anyone who may be about to lose his soul has to pull up his pants first?

LaLa247

11-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Penny Century
'Cause, ummmm, Standards and Practices expressly requires that anyone who may be about to lose his soul has to pull up his pants first? Does Standards and Practices require him to crawl on all fours into the rain?

And Angel went to see Cordy first. Hee.

KarKar

11-19-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Anyone want to explain to me why he was crawling around in pain with no soul losing? Still baffles me.
After sleeping with a 400 yr STD laden hooker? You gotta expect SOME burning sensation down there.

Penny Century

11-19-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
After sleeping with a 400 yr STD laden hooker? You gotta expect SOME burning sensation down there.
Okay, Kar wins.

tojoson

11-19-2003, 06:01 PM

when they're in the car

gunn: so you had an epiphany, did you
angel: yah
gunn: so, what, you just wake up and bang
angel: sort of the other way around

LMAO

Persephone

11-20-2003, 03:37 AM

You know what? Watching these reruns, I have no idea why I had the idea that S2 wasn't strong. Really, why did I think that? There was good, good stuff in S2. I think I know why: the Pylea arc and the introduction of Fred (I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend Fred fans and I have tried so very hard to like her) left a bad taste in my mouth and coloured my opinion in retrospect. But now I remember that I loved the Darla arc, the Lindsey-Lilah wars and heck, Lindsey in general, the beige arc, Angel's epiphany, the bonding of the FG in Angel's absence, and of course, Holland. The second time around, these are things I'm finding:

Gunn's presence bothers me less than I remembered, though there are still the same old problems. Wait, I do love Gunn, I just always felt that he was introduced too quickly as a regular and his reasons for leaving his crew and joining the FG so abruptly were never dealt with thoroughly. I still feel as though he should have been a recurring for the first part of S2 as he gradually injected himself into Angel's mission. But it doesn't bother me as much the second time around, interestingly enough. I think I was having silly hissy fits because at the time, I didn't like my magical triad (vampire, seer, watcher) disturbed. But now I see that Gunn doesn't disturb the dynamic and I regard this as my favourite grouping, with these four characters.

Lorne's character and screen time is just right in S2. Lorne shouldn't be weekly episodic comic relief--that only makes a caricature of a wise, funny character who really does add to the canvas.

I adore Wes as much as ever. 'Nuff said. I am struck by Cordy's character development even more, and it's even better than I remembered. Also, the bonding of the FG during the beige arc was just spectacular. I'd forgotten the delight of the Wes/Gunn bonding.

Problems: Kate bothers me more. Actually, she didn't bug me all that much the first time around, she just left me flat. Now she's sincerely bothering me, as are any stories revolving around the police station. Also, looking back, I would have preferred Angel spending even more time winning back the trust of his friends. Oh, how I loved those scenes.

Things I realize I miss even more than I thought: the detective agency concept. Friendship and comraderie. A small enough cast that individual eps could really deal with the characters in a meaningful way. And Cordy, Cordy, Cordy. Sigh.

KarKar

11-20-2003, 02:32 PM

I taped this last night on a whim. I know what you mean about missing those days. That was a great episode overall.

Gunn was still street but not a caricature. Still had some edge to him with Angel and those comments about 1973 cracked me up. I had forgotten about those.

Plus, Darla got kicked to the curb in a satisfying way. Same thing with Kate although that cloud when Angel bust through her door still nags me. Darla’s “payment” still struck hard.

As much as those characters and actresses didn’t thrill me, they’re wonderful next to Eve. I swear, she’s got the most wooden face and has a combination of JB’s little girl shrillness and ER’s flat, emotionless monotone.

Plus, CK. Man, someone come up with a CK One joke for me. Like what’s the sound of one hand clapping? CK One. Ok, I have no idea what that one means but I was almost giddy watching him. Loved his tension with Darla, loved the yuppie scum yanking off his tie, untying it which is a big deal when you look at his closet, to go country on Angel’s butt.

I loved Angel facing the skilosh only to have them run away so Angel gets hit by the truck. I loved his sledge hammer bit and Angel’s comment about how it could’ve been the other one.

I miss that slightly sinister, enigmatic Lorn. A little goes a long way, especially when he’s not the punchline for every joke.

Loved Funny Wes. We haven’t’ seen him in awhile. Like wondering if his neighbor’s gone out for the evening. Like him getting stuck in the mud, falling over, etc. Guy is probably the best physical comedian of the cast.

Not to mention babbling Angel. I can’t believe I used to be worried that the character would be a wooden post in the show. Loved that scene where he comes to their offices all contrite with his tail between his legs.

And that scene with Cordelia! Come on, if you didn’t see the subtext before, that look she gave him over her shoulder jumped off the screen at me. Platonic my ass.

But, I’m always amazed that CC can actually pull off chartreuse. Loved her short hair that’s long enough to flop around and run your fingers through. Plus, her hurt over the eye and being rescued was unencumbered and real even w/o removing her eye liner.

And yeah, that rape scene. I have no idea how TM didn’t get the overtones of two guys holding her down so a third can forcibly impregnate her from the back with a tongue so phallic you can tell it’s religion.

Remember when we hacked him off so Aya set up passwords and id's after that? Can't believe that was what, three years ago?

But who cares if Angel gets to smile lopsidedly at her and go all “it’s all about Cordy?”

LaLa247

11-24-2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
I miss that slightly sinister, enigmatic Lorn. A little goes a long way, especially when he’s not the punchline for every joke. Yes. Which is why he never should've became a regular.

And that scene with Cordelia! Come on, if you didn’t see the subtext before, that look she gave him over her shoulder jumped off the screen at me. Platonic my ass. Is this in the last scene with the "You really hurt my feelings" line? 'Cause now I gotta watch it again...

Tonight's "Disharmony", and that one scene in the beginning where Cordy says "And you and I?", I loooove Angel's obvious perking of the ears...he really could give a crap about Wes and Gunn- it was all about Cordy's forgiveness, wasn't it?

ETA: This ep has such great moments:

- Wes and Angel's storming into Cordy's apartment, and Wes getting crossbow-happy.

- DB and CC cracking up behind AD in the office.

- Gunn's little wave to Harmony and Cordy's slap (C/G!) and Gunn's face when he's told that Harmony's a vamp.

- The motivational speaker's speech is so very funny- I died laughing. "Turn two- the rest is food!"

- "Get her out of here. Now." Hee!

- The Power Walk interrupted by Harmony. Gunn, Wes, and Angel actually look pissed LOL.

- I love the shot of them all on the stage, with Cordy in the front with the crossbow. It was just such a well done shot with the lighting and the placing and the mood. Lovely. And Cordy's kicking ass with them- brilliant. :)

- The happy clothes dance! Still cracks me up, if only for Boreanaz's face- such genuine glee.

Hey, I have the DVDs...*g*

QueenC

11-24-2003, 04:35 PM

Damn... I forgot how much I like Disharmony! I love the scene where Angel is talking to Wes about how Cordy said they weren't friends... he just looks sooo hurt.
And Wes.. "While you're at it, why don't you pick me up one of those "sorry you got shot in the gut" bouquets! HEE!

And I love the scenes with Harmony while they are researching... she is driving Wes absolutely NUTS with her gum-chewing. And I get a kick out of watching CC and DB cracking up in the background!

And, I have to say it... CC looks just fabulous in this episode!

Lori :)

ETA: And Lorne... this reminds me of why I like him so much...
Cordy: What do ya think?
Lorne: I think your friend should reconsider the name Harmony!

And La... my favorite part of the "cross-bow" scene in Cordy's apartment is when Angel is rationalizing giving Harmony a chance, and Wes turns the cross-bow on HIM... with this "are you crazy" look on his face!

This really was the golden age (late season 2, early season 3) of AtS!

I love him!

KarKar

11-24-2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Yes. Which is why he never should've became a regular.

Is this in the last scene with the "You really hurt my feelings" line? 'Cause now I gotta watch it again...
Nah, the one after that. When she wonders why she's not on the floor after a vision and he tells that he's got her. She glances at him over her shoulder and they just have this look.

I think we have Disharmony to thank/blame for Harmony's addition to the cast. Frankly if they'd had built on her and AD for laughs taht would be a lot more fun.

I love her declaration that she is evil. Then Wes immediately goes for the stake.

LaLa247

11-24-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by QueenC
And La... my favorite part of the "cross-bow" scene in Cordy's apartment is when Angel is rationalizing giving Harmony a chance, and Wes turns the cross-bow on HIM... with this "are you crazy" look on his face! LOL Does he really? Now I gotta watch that scene all over again...

And look at the C/Aness of that scene before the raid! Angel so resembled a boyfriend lying to his girlfriend about being unfaithful, right down to the slightly raised voice and cringe-y face.

Gawd, if this doesn't make me 'ship C/A again...

ETA: Thanks, Kar.

- Angel's little "woo" after chopping off the leader's head. Hee.

- Cordy said "MY city"...right on. This should've been a hint that the girl should've been getting more independent.

- Once again, the happy clothes dance. Angel just looks beyond thrilled that Cordelia is not mad at him and touching him- it's really the first time Angel's incredibly giddy, isn't it?

- The Greenie truck! How I miss that...

KarKar

11-24-2003, 04:59 PM

psychofilly

11-24-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
Heck, even Cordelia gives him a "what do you put in your blood" look.

Naw, that look screamed "Kiss-ass." Cordy knew what he was up to and didn't want any of it.

Dannyblue

11-25-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by psychofilly
Naw, that look screamed "Kiss-ass." Cordy knew what he was up to and didn't want any of it.

He was so transparent, and adorable because of it. I think he was trying to be all cool and subtle but, since he really is kind of a dork, he couldn't have been more obvious.

Also, I know a lot of people having nothing nice to say about the last scene. And, intellectually, I admit their reasons are valid. But, I gotta tell ya, I loved it then, and I loved it now. I can watch it over and over again, just to see Angel join Cordy in her little "La-la-la-la-la" dance. It is one of the most adorable scenes in the history of either show. :D

Bullocks

11-25-2003, 04:16 PM

Aww, poor Cordy, I necer realized just how much these visions affected her, well I did, I just didn't remember...especially in season 2, she's in so much pain.

LaLa247

11-25-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Bullocks
Aww, poor Cordy, I necer realized just how much these visions affected her, well I did, I just didn't remember...especially in season 2, she's in so much pain. This really should've been something that was brought back and not just dropped, y'know? But, whatevs...

Bullocks

11-25-2003, 04:31 PM

I'm watching now, and maybe I am just dense, but Lindsey's song in the episode where he left, is like a rendition of season 4...The sky is going to rain down in fire... etc...I feel kind of stupid now...

ETA- I guess it is pretty obvious now that I am suspicious that he knows something about what really happened last season.

LaLa247

11-25-2003, 04:56 PM

The evil hand speech! *g*

But what was Lindsey's deal with Charlie? :lol:

tojoson

11-25-2003, 06:12 PM

lindsey's comment:

'the key to wolfram and hart...don't let them make you play their game, you gotta make them play your's'

well angel sure failed to take THAT advise, cause he's playing their game now.

and the smile on angel's face when cordy told him 'i love you'
no attraction whatsoever

LaLa247

11-26-2003, 04:04 PM

Oh, my God, I am so embarrassed for Angel right now with that scene he's making. :lol:

Tonight's "Belonging"! That was, like, three strong C/A vibe-y episodes in a row, right? And poor Angel looks genuinely concerned that Cordy would leave if her acting career takes off. Aw. ;)

And I've just remembered how much of a cheapsake he was.

ETA: After being able to watch these episodes in widescreen, it looks really weird to see it without the letterbox again.

rolandro

11-26-2003, 04:13 PM

What happened to cordy's rebar scar? She didn't get it removed at the 'Kinderstod' hospital, did she?

psychofilly

11-26-2003, 04:30 PM

The scar is there, it's really Charisma's scar, so they can't "lose" it, hee!

LaLa247

11-26-2003, 04:40 PM

So many C/A moments, man. Makes my heart go a-flutter...and then I remember what's to come and I get pissed again. Then I stop caring.

"She felt I disrepected the Hacklaar's culture by killing it." LMAO Killed me.

QueenC

11-26-2003, 08:02 PM

God, I had forgotten how much I loved these episodes. I really have to say that I think that the latter half of season 2 and the first half of season 3 were probably my favorite of all the AtS episodes. There was such a great vibe among the 4 of them. We saw them as a group that really fit . (Plus, the implied A/C goodness really felt natural . God, I miss that!). Don't get me wrong, I like fred well enough, but by that time, adding a new character just felt a little forced.
And I think this was Lorne's best time too... he had some great lines and stories. He was comic relief, but with depth.

I don't know what it is... I liked late Season 2 and early Season 3 of BtVS best too. It's like this was the time when the shows were really building and solidifying their audiences... the fans really became *invested* during this time. And the creators really took the care to build the show and characters with some love and care. After that, once they felt they *had* us, they let their egos run amok and all hell broke loose -- the stories just got more and more out-of-control!

Lori :)

Jake

11-27-2003, 10:10 AM

Here's a link to a story from September of 2002, questioning whether Charisma would return for S4 (and she did of course sit out the first three episodes). Can anyone recall what developed out of this, and whether there was any truth to the purported "personal problem" attributed to her by the "WB source"?

http://litefoot1969.bravepages.com/buffy/news/carpenter.htm#06

tojoson

11-27-2003, 11:59 AM

jake:

look at the source, it's from wrongda, (wanda, kristen) and 99.5% of the people figure she got 'confused' and was really talking about yancey butler who DID have some problems at this time (and apparently still does). charisma apparently said that she was taking some personal TIME, (which in hollywood means you are not working on another project), and wrongda maybe thought she said personal problems. it's easy to make this mistake if you don't listen to what's being said, and wrongda never goes back and corrects her mistakes.

CC's break was scheduled way in advance,
mark lutz (groo) knew of this break far enough in advance to audition for, and schedule filming 2 guest spots during this time (friends and ER), and you don't do that on the spur of the moment.

in addition, david greenwalt in an interview stated that cordy's presence during this time would have been detrimental to the storyline
(my idea--if she had been there, she may have noticed and found the reason angel was going crazy (spiked blood), she may have found out what wes was doing and prevented it (running away with conner), or she may have talked some sense into angel and prevented him and wes from breaking up)

Jake

11-27-2003, 12:18 PM

Thanks, tojo. Let's hope Wrongda is on her own vacation when they do CC's True Hollywood Story.

rolandro

11-28-2003, 03:03 PM

There was a whole vibe on S2 that was very playful and you get the feeling they're all just starting to stretch. I just loaded up 'belonging' again (I see the scar now, PF) and the scene where Lorne goes to the Hyperion to tell them about the Drokken. Right after the cutaway scene where the Drokken eats and takes the girl, there's a reaction shot looking at CC from Lorne's POV - she's sitting on the circular deal with Wes - DB is offscreen stage right(ed. stage left, actually, viewer-right). Angel has just said "that's all you've got for us?" Wes is asking Lorne "What does it want, what is it capable of?"

Freeze frame.

CC is looking offscreen - stage right (ed. again - stage left, to where DB would be standing) DB? Somebody over there is doing something, because CC smiles this little, amused Mona Lisa, just for a second, and then slips back into Cordelia -looking at Lorne now, but still clearly amused about something. It was a shot they easily could've done again (and probably had several takes to choose from). I think it was left in because it was a little inside joke.

It makes me love this season even more!

Dannyblue

11-30-2003, 11:12 AM

I loved season 2 when it first aired (I even like Pylea), and I'm liking it even more in re-runs. I even liked the Beige Arc. Of course, this could be because I knew how and when it was going to end this time around, and I didn't have to wait a week between episodes. When it aired the first time, I couldn't really enjoy the gangs seperation.

Also, "Belonging" is just dripping with C/A goodness. And it was all so natural an easy. Angel's quadruple takes when Cordy took of the robe, not to mention his hard, audible gulp as he tried to look somewhere else. Angel choking his axe handle as he imagine Cordy in that swimsuit. :D Not to mention his hand gestures as he tried to describe said suit. Angel instinctively grabbing Cordy when the portal opened. C/A gold!

The Fang Gang vibe was great too. The dinner was awesome. And I noticed that, when Lorne came into the hotel, you could almost feel how he was the outsider. Not because they didn't like Lorne, but because Angel, Cordy, and Wes (and Gunn, when he's on the scene) are a unit. I felt the same way with "Disharmony". When they are standing outside the theater, and even though Cordy was mad at Angel, the four were still a unit, and Harmony was this outside element that had been dropped among them. The Fang Gang really did have this wonderful, family vibe going on.

Ah, the good old days.

Originally posted by LaLa247
"She felt I disrepected the Hacklaar's culture by killing it." LMAO Killed me.

LaLa, this is one of my favorite lines ever. I can just imagine this mystery woman taking Wes to task for disrespecting the murdurous demons right's. It seems so LA!

rolandro

11-30-2003, 05:03 PM

Danny Blue -
Don't forget Cordy's response to the powerwalker's line about disrespecting the Hacklar: "This town sucks."

tojoson

11-30-2003, 10:21 PM

i know it's not on tnt yet, (it was on my local wb) but anyway,

i just finished watching s-3 'dad', and the way CC handled conner in the end, i just wonder if that is what woke up her maternal instinct, and got her wanting a baby of her own.

if so, then her getting pregnant for season 4 is really all joss's fault

LaLa247

11-30-2003, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by tojoson

if so, then her getting pregnant for season 4 is really all joss's fault That's a joke, right?

rolandro

12-01-2003, 11:02 AM

I saw 'Dad' too, last night ('Birthday' - next Sun. 10-11pm in Seattle, Brahmsviolin)
My take on Cordy is that she's always sought to keep a family of sorts nearby, going all the way back to the Cordettes (solitary rich girl in an emotionally mute family) - not a 'maternal' instinct back then per se - but by TSILA she was definitely seeing the core group as family, and by the time she went out found the office space and restarted 'Ang-blalala Investigations' she was the one that had the last word - and that's a 'mom' if I've ever seen one. The eppy last night did make me think however: is this really coming from the character and if so, is it just another example of Cordy stepping up and adding a new layer to her development, or has she been thinking about having kids herself some time before? If the latter were true, then I don't see it come from the material of her character presented thus far. Mom to grownups, yes. Babies? No. However, the 'baby wish' would better explain what I saw in 'Dad'- a rather well thought out argument by Cordy on the realities of child-raising to Angel and Cordy's having a book on baby health (where did that come from?) My conclusion is that the writers were picking this plot point to stretch Cordy beyond what she could realistically be expected to do. They were moving her from character to plot device.

As for CC wanting kids, tojoson, I've seen quotes going back years from her that indicated she wanted children. Chrissy has a post on CC.com (won't link, but it's easy to find) which also sort of sums this up.

Penny Century

12-01-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by rolandro
My conclusion is that the writers were picking this plot point to stretch Cordy beyond what she could realistically be expected to do. They were moving her from character to plot device.
I don't know that that's true. Keep in mind that Cordy (and at this point Cordy alone) knew she was dying by the time Connor came along. If that plot thread had been developed properly -- hell, even wrung for all the angst inherent in the concept -- this could have been a natural response to the knowledge that her best friend's baby would be the closest thing she'd ever have to one of her own. You actually can see some of that in CC's portrayal without even looking very closely; I got the impression she was eager to explore that part of her character's arc but never got the writing to support it.

LaLa247

12-01-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by rolandro
[...]Angel and Cordy's having a book on baby health (where did that come from?) They probably bought the baby book with all the other baby stuff they bought that night (They had diapers, blankets, medicine...).

Morrigan

12-01-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Penny Century
I don't know that that's true. Keep in mind that Cordy (and at this point Cordy alone) knew she was dying by the time Connor came along. If that plot thread had been developed properly -- hell, even wrung for all the angst inherent in the concept

Funny thing is that would have made for the start of a really good and natural E!C storyline. She's suffered debiliating pain from the Visions, lives with the knowledge that she will die from them, yet still keeps the visions b/c of her sense of duty to "the helpless". Then she gets to ascend and finds out that the PTB aren't all that good (more middle of the road types). Pretty good basis for a power corrupts storyline and a good vs. evil, free will, etc debate.

Pity ME shortchanged the character so much. Hell even if they "had" to write in the pregancy. Add one mystic pregnancy by the PTB that Cordy isn't thrilled with (feels used by) and there goes another natural storyline for Cordy to go dark. It's sad really :(

SamIAm

12-01-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Morrigan
Pretty good basis for a power corrupts storyline and a good vs. evil, free will, etc debate.

Shoot, just have Cordy in a perfectly natural position to decide she wants the world to be a better place for her and Groo's child and ride with that. ME gets the same situation Jasmine created without the eating people silliness, so there's a real conflict going between the free will and the results of free will being surpressed instead of the fake version of that story ME foisted on people, not to mention the attending "absolute power corrupts absolutely" story, and ME doesn't have to eat its own mythology by claiming anyone was anything's puppet. Plus, if Cordy inadvertently made everyone perfectly happy, ME doesn't even need the "what the hell were they thinking?" moments to explain how Angelus came to be. They still get Faith and Willow saving the day, 'cause by then I'm sure they'd been told they have to make Angel all about Buffy, and there's a real source of conflict between Angel and Connor instead of the contrived source ME came up with.

But then there's no SHOCK! and SURPRISE!, so what'cha ya gonna do?

Morrigan

12-01-2003, 12:28 PM

Exactly! So much set up in S2/S3 for a great pay-off in S4 and nada.

I do wonder what would have happened with Cordy in S4 even HB!C or E!C if Greenie was still in charge?

Dannyblue

12-01-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Morrigan
I do wonder what would have happened with Cordy in S4 even HB!C or E!C if Greenie was still in charge?

Ah, you had to bring up THE MAN.

I always appreciated him, and I remember feeling a lot of trepidation when they announced he was moving on. But I realize now, more than ever, how much he must've controlled the balance of AtS. Even though I liked season 4, I do think it didn't all tie together in the end, and I bet DG would've made a huge difference in how it played out. Not to mention the Cordy storyline.

And "Dad" is another episode I liked a lot more after a little time. That seems to happen a lot with this show. Episodes I once thought were so-so now strike me as being really good. It's weird, but I like it!

rolandro

12-01-2003, 03:20 PM

That's true - but the baby book? Remember, the gang didn't know what Darla was carrying, they were all armed as protection against Darla, but also ready to stake the baby ala Alien, if it ended up 'skittering' as Angel described it. No one thought Connor would be human, then. In 'Dad' timeline-wise the results of the hotel ambush were everywhere. They hadn't been to the hotel since the ultrasound excursion to the hospital. Getting ambushed by the Vamps in the operating theatree would leave her precious little time to get a Public Health publication on what human babies need in their first few days of life.

But you're right, Penny. Cordy knew she was dying. And this fact is just another example of a plot point left unexplored for the sake of being a surprise later on.

Sounds like I need to pick up the Cliff Notes.
Surprise Me! I'm dying! I've just been too busy helping the homeless (ed. DOH!) to really notice!

Morrigan

12-01-2003, 03:58 PM

They stopped off after the baby was born to pick up stuff. IIRC, "Dad" opens with the FG coming into the Hotel with bags of baby stuff.

LaLa247

12-01-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Morrigan
They stopped off after the baby was born to pick up stuff. IIRC, "Dad" opens with the FG coming into the Hotel with bags of baby stuff. Didn't I say that at the top of this page? Am I invisible? ;)

I like this episode more and more every time I see it. The C/A vibes are so very strong- let's all give Boreanaz a round of applause for the unscripted "sad eyes"...

This also brings back a giggle- I remember when people thought Angel was calling Buffy before he went to Pylea. But he *wasn't*! He was callin' GUNN! /glee

ETA: I'm catching some C/G vibes in this ep too. Interesting.

rolandro

12-01-2003, 05:34 PM

You're not invisible, Lala (really. How could you be?) But they were in a rush, and I coulda swore that the book was Dept. Health/Welfare. I have it on tape, too lazy to rewind - yet. But really, the fact that she had or didn't have the book is not that important, in my mind. Using the 'ambush' metaphor for Cordy's whole behavior here, it wasn't so much that she 'discovered' all this stuff Connor would need in the next few days, it was more like she 'sprung' it. Pop! Cordy as Mother. The idea that Cordy and Angel actually humanized each other during their blossoming friendship is also possible. It's just that in their mindset at the time it seems a stretch. Don't get me wrong here, I LOVE that Cordy has the thread of the 'family' and that Angel will need to trust them to raise his son properly (and couldn't you see a normal Connor at some point, finding out the a. Cordy is NOT his real Mom and b. that Angel is NOT a normal dad and her telling him that these are not necessarily bad things, but that's not tv or dramatic, is it? but it is there.)

I just think that it didn't feel organic within Cordy - as shown thus far - but rather some writer going to extremes (ed. - well, not necessarily to extremes, but to stretch her into something more) to tell us that 'Cordy is Changing.' Some simple forshadowing of Cordy's condition (I'm dying. Cordy writing: 'Things I hope to do before I die' - 'Baby'. But then, if she was dying, who would raise her child?)

Penny Century

12-01-2003, 05:54 PM

I guess I just don't think that was something they necessarily needed to foreshadow. Again, with Cordy facing maybe months, maybe weeks to live, there could be all sorts of things she didn't know she wanted until her options had shrunk to that short, narrow path with the grave at the end of it. Maybe having her own baby wasn't on her to-do list, but it's reasonable to think she'd enjoy however much time she could spend with her friend's baby, especially since -- fancy that -- she was the one who'd never see that milestone in her own time. Again, lost in the writing and in the careless, heedless abandonment of the real issues involved in placing a death sentence on a 21-year-old woman, but this is Em Mee, and it's par for Em Mee's course.

Mileage varies, I'm sure.

DamnSkippy

12-01-2003, 06:35 PM

I guess I don't see the problem. Not unusual since I'm not the biggest and best at character analyzation. Hell, I don't really even know where to start. But, I saw Cordy doing what Cordy always does. Taking the bull by the horns and taking charge. Seeing that there was something to be done and doing it. Connor was a 'helpless' baby and her whole raison d'etre was helping the helpless, so her becoming super mom IMO was not a stretch.

There was never any opportunity given to her character in either BtVS or Ats to interact with kids, so how do we know she didn't have the mothering vibe? If anything, the whole taking care of her FG family oozes mothering, so to extend that to a baby makes perfect sense. Of course, what we've seen of her mothering technique with adults is far different than how she is shown mothering a baby which is as it should be. But, I have no doubt that it comes from the same need to care for and protect those she loves.

LadyJubilee

12-01-2003, 06:36 PM

I didn't really see it as maternal instinct kicking in. Rather I saw it as Cordelia's "just get it done" attitude. She always seemed to confront issues straight on, so, to me, if she had to figure out quick how to care for a baby, she'd take the most direct route---and buy a book. (Well, direct considering she wouldn't exactly have been the "babysitter" type in high school.)

rolandro

12-01-2003, 06:51 PM

The difference is what I SEE vs. what I WANT to see. So I'm sad I don't know that Cordy is dying, or that somewhere in her tranformation from vain teen to empath I didn't get some glimpse of the need for something deeper in her life. If you read other posts of mine, you'll see that I think the notion of 'family' is an unarticulated hunger for this character - as a spoiled teen, Cordy was always so unimpressed with the expensive substitutions of the European holidays, the ski trips, the spas and other tokens of exchange for real human interaction with her own absent family. Cordy was distrustful of 'nice' behaviors with others, and her Sunnydale snark was such a transparent defense mechanism against dissappointment. Now she's in relationships with people that know both the 'new' her and the 'old' her people that accept her totally as Cordelia - and people that tell her they like both - and Cordy believes that the 'old her' was there to protect the 'new her'- which is something she is now learning makes her feel fulfilled.

Cordy needed a moment to go, 'Baby? (Breathe!) This is new. What does this mean for me, for the promises I make to my friends?' I would've liked to see that flash across the screen at some point. I accept the reason that you give, that Em Mee short-changed Cordy because they didn't respect her.

DamnSkippy - like I said earlier, Cordy was a Mom - but for grownups - and becoming a baby/mother may have been on her short-list of things to do. However, this stuff has to evolve in some way, it just can't be: 'Cordy's evolving, this is one of the ways we see that.' This is not incremental development, this is - at least to this childless middle-aged man - more of a quantum leap of mind set that deserves at least a little bit of exposition. It would've made it more interesting.

LaLa247

12-01-2003, 07:04 PM

I'm probably not within a mile of the current convo, so I'll just ramble.

I always thought that on screen (Not what ME intended, I'm sure) is that it was "What Cordy thought" verus "What Angel sees". Cordy never on screen thought of herself as Connor's mother, she was "Auntie Cordy". She was not Connor's mother, but she took care of him and loved him as Angel's kid. She cared for Angel, so naturally she would care for his kid as well. Cordelia, who most definately knew she was dying by the time Dad came along, probably just jumped at the opportunity to hold an infant and to be apart of Angel's blood family, which was never supposed to happen, y'know?

And Angel allowed it.

I think while Cordy saw herself as "Auntie Cordy", Angel always saw her as Connor's mom (After Dad). By this time, his feelings for her were surfacing, so I <strike>fanwank</strike> think that maybe this was just the ideal situation for him- he has a son and Cordelia can be his mom (Kinda like Angelus confirmed in Souless). Since the show is called Angel, I can imagine what we see on screen is supposed to be what Angel sees/thinks/etc.

Yeah, I'm leaving, I made no sense.

Dannyblue

12-02-2003, 03:30 AM

I get ya, LaLa. I really do think that Angel started seeing himself, Connor and Cordy as a little family. He just never got around to telling her that.

And I agree about the book. Thinking about it, of all the FG, Cordy seems like the logical one to get a book about taking care of a baby. That's just Cordy. If there's something that needs doing, she does it. Or tells someone else to do it. :D

And I love today's episode, if for no other reason than to see Angel completely freak out when Cordy disappears. Angel looking for Cordy behind those curtains because, in his panic, he'd rather believe she's playing a game of hid-and-seek than that's she's been sucked through a portal. And the way he said, "I just got her back."

Awwwwwww.

And I know I'm jumping ahead, but I'm trying to imagine "Heartthrob" not being shown in widescreen. Of all the episodes, it's one that took the most advantage of it. It really had a cinematic feel.

rolandro

12-02-2003, 08:00 AM

I love you guys. You protect our precious heroine, and realize that these are some very precious moments we're talking about. Very precious. And thank you for being so nice to me, treating me with your special soft mitts.

Anyway. I want to be clear: I ABSOLUTELY LOVE that Cordy is the one that goes, uh - guys? Angel? We have a cart-horse situation here. That IS pure Cordy. I love pure Cordy moments, because, for one thing I can see what Charisma's been up to, and it's not just coming up with spazdance routines with JAR. She's been putting work in on Cordy, buffing her up in tiny ways. This is a very finely tuned, nuanced piece of acting we're getting treated to.

What a difference a night's sleep can make. I feel rested and ready to avoid that piece of s*** manuscript over there. But man, what a day/night these folks went through. After 'stake the skittering alien' becomes 'it's a human' becomes 'let's get ready to be family' becomes 'let's get ready to be toast' becomes 'let's fulfill prophecy and have a baby' becomes 'let's prepare to be parents' becomes 'let's get ready to become toast II' becomes 'let's pretend we're getting ready to become toast II' becomes, becomes,'gasp' (mine)'let's meet at the hospital after for a nice little denoument and some Vitamin K'. . .

I gotta go soak my wrists in cold water for the carpal tunnel and it's only just 5:30 in the morning.

Now I love rousing action just as much as the next landscape architect, and really, rousing action with a baby? Batman with a Bun? Isn't that just the most precious thing?

I'm just saying. I want my precious moments! More, not less.

So getting back to Tojo's post (that started me off) - Action hero w/ baby takes on minions from Hell. That borders on bad taste. Bound to get us put on some parental type lists. Which we don't mind (NPR doesn't care about these lists put out by vulgar middle-brow hordes) How can we top that? Kickboxing w/ a pregnant woman? No. Too far. Let's go with secret evil, with lot's of 'who's driving Cordy complications' - sort of like 'administrative evil in a law firm' as a means to 'revamp' a tired old show about family. It should be dramatic, but is it? Really? It's just frustrating! Wah!

Back to piece of s***

LaLa247

12-02-2003, 04:51 PM

Tonight is "Through the Looking Glass", and it's my least fav Pylea ep.

The Fred stuff is way too corny and eyeroll-worthy. Gimme crazy, without-the-Titanic-music Fred, please.

Persephone

12-03-2003, 03:42 AM

K, things I'm discovering about S2 redux... the Pylea arc isn't as bad as I remembered. It's still my least favourite arc of the season, but it's fine-ish, for the most part. I was tickled all over again by the bit with the Wolf-Ram-Hart books... sigh, I do love me some Wes. Was that development -- W&H either being actors in the Pylea dimension or general placetakers for evil and mayhem in all dimensions -- ever followed up on?

Dannyblue

12-03-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Persephone
Was that development -- W&H either being actors in the Pylea dimension or general placetakers for evil and mayhem in all dimensions -- ever followed up on?

The conclusion I drew from that bit of business wasn't that our dimensions W&H had anything to do with Pylea, or sending Cordy there. It was more that W&H, in one form or another, are involved in the evil goings on in who knows how many dimensions. In a medieval world like Pylea, they are the religious sect that runs everything behind the scenes, while giving the people figureheads (like a monarch and a Groosalug) to worship. In a more modern dimension, they are lawyers...doing pretty much the same thing.

LaLa247

12-03-2003, 11:51 AM

Watching the painful Long Day's Journey last night, I realize that it was really, REALLY obvious that Cordelia was evil. Whether intentional or not, it was.

v120176

12-03-2003, 01:13 PM

Continuing the "What would DG did on season 4?" theme.
That's an answer I keep asking.... I mean, all the characters that went into a "dark time" did it because it was their choices. OK, W&H and Darla were pissing off and pushing Angel, in season 2, but it was his desicion fired the group and start a cruzade using any method. With Wesley, the same. Maybe the prophesy was false, but HE BELIEVED that Angel was capable of killing Connor, he didn't discuss that with anybody. He decided by himself taking the baby away from his father.
So, if the Evil Cordy was somenthing planned a long time before CC's pregnancy (as the asshat said), I wonder how DG would write that. The way JW did it result into a "innocent of all charges" for the real Cordy. She didn't make any questionable choice. Was Jazmine controling her all the time. The difference with DG is he always put the final decision into the character, there was external influence (W&H and the prophesy) but at the end were the real characters who screwed up the things.
Because of that, is that I keep asking me How DG would managed the Evil Cordy plot: what happened that she became evil.

Val.

LaLa247

12-03-2003, 05:04 PM

Random thoughts about "There's No Place..."

- My God, Greenie got Gunn! LOVED Gunn in this episode, all the way through. Right from his "sweet baby Jesus" line to his breakdown of freedom and reconstruction in society. See, Gunn IS intelligent.

- Cracked up after Angel and Fred surprised the rebels, that one guy dropped from the tree a second too late. Angel's reaction was amusing as well.

- The guys' loss of words when describing Lorne- typical men. ;) But the way they screamed and jumped back when his head talked? I laughed my ass off, man.

- This was true Cordy. Snarky but not cold, she was mean to some but overall conflicted over her visions. And she looked lovely in that costume.

- Still don't dig the sudden "Groo love" from her, though.

- LOVED Fred's little thumbs-up to Angel when he challenged Groo and his slight wiggage when the dude put his hand over the fire. There's the Fred and Angel I know and love.

- While we're on that, this was the Fang Gang I knew and loved. Wes was Wes, Gunn was still Gunn, Cordy was Cordy, Fred was crazy and FRED, and Angel was Angel! Dammit.

- How the hell did they get Angel's car out of the club?

- Also, did y'all see Angel offer Cordy his hand when they got out of the car? Hee.

- Fucking Willow ruined Angel's good mood. Fucking Buffy-related mood killer.

KarKar

12-03-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
- How the hell did they get Angel's car out of the club?

I think it was decided that since it was an old warehouse/commercial space, they probably had a back door for truck deliveries so that the car could've been driven out that way.

tojoson

12-03-2003, 10:24 PM

yah, remember the loading door they broke thru later in s-3 when holtz was after angel and darla, the doorway into the alley where conner was born.
this re-decoration was probably where lorne covered it up.

Dannyblue

12-04-2003, 08:56 AM

I still think Pylea is a hoot. I saw this arc before finding ST, or any other discussion boards. When I started visiting the forums, and looking back over what people said about past episodes, I was surprised by the serious dislike people seemed to have for these episodes. I think it was because everyone was primed and ready for a BUFFY-like showdown finale, where the Fang Gang go up against Darla, Dru, Lindsey, and the forces of W&H in an a battle of epic proportions. Instead, we got a humorous mini-series to end the season.

The one-liners in all of the Pylea episodes are priceless. Cordy had some of the best. "You're most high if you think that's gonna happen." "It's been a really long time since I had a good...Comshuck." And, in regards to Angel's hair, "No, it always looks like that."

And I really liked how you had to pay as much attention to the characters in the background. Like when Lorne goes home to his family. In the foreground, Lorne is calls his very masculine mother "Mom". Angel, who is standing behind Lorne, and is even out of focus, looks shocked, and mouths the word "Mom" as if he can't believe it. Now, usually, a viewer doesn't pay attention to characters in the background, because they don't do anything to add to the scene. But, if you ignored the characters in the background in the Pylea episodes, you'd miss some truly funny stuff.

Anyway, I still like these episodes, and it's nice that so many people who didn't originally are starting to give them a chance.

LaLa247

12-04-2003, 04:20 PM

"Hearthrob"...hee. I don't care what anyone says, Angel called Cordy "baby". Dammit. And crazy!Fred! I love Crazy!Fred!

The golden year. *g*

Morrigan

12-04-2003, 04:51 PM

Is that even in question? I'm pretty sure "baby" was in the closed caption.

QueenC

12-04-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Morrigan
Is that even in question? I'm pretty sure "baby" was in the closed caption.

Oh, I heard it too! I love this episode! I taped it today because I knew I probably wouldn't be home in time to see it. I love all of the incidental touching between the two of them in this episode... they are always reaching for each other in one way or another!

Lori :)

KarKar

12-04-2003, 05:06 PM

Gawd, that was a great C/A episode. Hands all over each other, the Purple Garanimals, the touching, the statements as to how well they know each other, and the smiles. Oh lor the smiles when he sees her in the beginning.

Tyeshia

12-04-2003, 06:50 PM

Most of season 3, I haven't seen since it originally aired. Boy did I miss it! Anyway, am I the only one who enjoyed Angel's "Oh her" look when Cordy is trying to get him to talk about Buffy. Also, have to agree about all the touching, and lingering looks. I thought the C/Aer in me was dead. This ep brought it all back.

felmitch

12-04-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by KarKar
Gawd, that was a great C/A episode. Hands all over each other, the Purple Garanimals, the touching, the statements as to how well they know each other, and the smiles. Oh lor the smiles when he sees her in the beginning.

I just love that smile. It was so genuine and he was really glad to see her...them.

Persephone

12-05-2003, 03:53 PM

Sigh. Heartthrob. Best season opener ever. But oh no! What's this? Strange...feelings... Old...wounds...opening... C/A love...re-emerging... Oh crap. S3 gets me every time.

Plus, loved the walkout scene together at the end. Just loved it to bits. That's the family.

jujube1013

12-05-2003, 05:19 PM

sort of ot
i was just watching "dead man's party" and did anyone notice when they were trying to barricade the door and the zombies crashed through the door, oz got caught, buffy, willow, xander and joyce all ran upstairs leaving poor oz in the zombie's clutches who saved him?
CORDY!!!!
then she went up against what she thought was zombie giles, so even then you could see that she was a hero.

Dannyblue

12-06-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by jujube1013
sort of ot
i was just watching "dead man's party" and did anyone notice when they were trying to barricade the door and the zombies crashed through the door, oz got caught, buffy, willow, xander and joyce all ran upstairs leaving poor oz in the zombie's clutches who saved him?
CORDY!!!!
then she went up against what she thought was zombie giles, so even then you could see that she was a hero.

I noticed that, even when I wasn't the biggest of Cordy fans. I think that, despite showing her shallow side back on BtVS, they also showed that Cordy could be loyal (promising to stay with Xander even when she thought he was the Creature from the Black Lagoon) and courageous (driving through a sea of vampires to save Willow and Jenny). These are all little things people who want to believe Cordy's heroism on AtS was "new" and "out of the blue" like to forget.

rolandro

12-08-2003, 12:04 PM

This is slightly off topic, but inspired by DannyBlue -

People also tend to forget that Cordy was humbled as a Senior, her family (although never present) was broken up, her college fund seized, had her well-fortified heart stolen and literally punctured by Xander, and she was rediculed by the Cordettes. She also remained a reluctant Scooby even though they were the source of her deepest pain. And yet she still manages to make it through this most horrible of years grace and style, giving as well as she got. Cordy was a force of nature, an extremely powerful personality. Gosh, even Buffy conceded that ("that'll teach them to mistake you for a Slayer." - Mistake???)

People also tend to forget that as teenagers most of us played all of the roles from bitch to victim, from nice to mean, from 'in' to 'loser.' In fact, I'd say that, if given half a chance most of us not only acted mean, but actually ENJOYED those rare opportunites (for us 'nice' kids) to inflict severe emotional damage on somebody weaker than ourselves. I know I was picked on, and I also remember being very, very mean (and with a tongue like mine, too.) Nice kids turned on you when you least expected it; mean kids got their feelings hurt just like the rest of us.

But that was High School, for crying out loud. Everybody was like that, a vampire, a werewolf, a victim - all in one. That was the deal.

HS is a great place to be FROM and many people - 'nice' and 'not-so'- want to move on quickly. I had friends in Jr High that dissed me in HS because I wasn't cool enough become my friends again in our early 20's. I did the same with kids I'd dissed.

In Cordy's case, her plumeting social and financial status made her leave Sunnydale so quick she didn't bother to learn that Harmony was vamped at graduation. By the time Cordy meets Angel in 'City of' she's barely subsisting on Humble Pie and hope. Not very nourishing stuff, but it does tend to make you grateful. Gratitude and learning to trust in the charity of others are the primary motivators for many of the selfless choices she makes further on. I've never really gotten how people like to pidgeon-hole Cordy so. Are they still IN High School? Or else on the reunion committee, perhaps?

starlet2367

12-08-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Persephone
Sigh. Heartthrob. Best season opener ever. But oh no! What's this? Strange...feelings... Old...wounds...opening... C/A love...re-emerging... Oh crap. S3 gets me every time.

Plus, loved the walkout scene together at the end. Just loved it to bits. That's the family.

Oh, God. Heartthrob. My favorite ep of S3--and almost my fave ep ever. The smiles, the touches, the humor, the HOPE. Plus, widescreen format that really got used to its fullest potential. That was some kickass filmage, oy vey.

Whenever I need a pick-me-up I pull out this ep. Makes me smile every time. :sniffle: Like Perseph says, there's our little family.

Kel

LaLa247

12-08-2003, 12:46 PM

Tonight is That Vision Thing! SQUEEEE! /fan girl

Kinda off-topic, but they gave Birthday on FOX Saturday night, and I was just remembered how completely willing Cordelia was to go through more pain (and possible deformities) to help Angel and the mission, and how Angel never really had a clue of how much she sacrificed.

It just pisses me off they fucked it up in S4 instead of having Angel deal with the fact that Cordy sacrificed her life, literally, for him and his mission. There could've been an arc right there.

starlet2367

12-08-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
It just pisses me off they fucked it up in S4 instead of having Angel deal with the fact that Cordy sacrificed her life, literally, for him and his mission. There could've been an arc right there.

Don't. Even. Get. Me. Started.

:grits teeth:

But, hey! TVT! You can bet I'll be watching this one. :)

Kel

Dannyblue

12-08-2003, 02:17 PM

Of course I'm watching TVT on TNT. It would have aired on Friday if not for golf! And I was seriously honked off. Never mind that I've seen it a million times. Never mind that I have it on tape. Never mind that I watched it in syndication just a month or so back. How dare they pre-empt TVT for golf! :lol:

tojoson

12-08-2003, 05:49 PM

TVT:

cordy's voice, how did she get that strained sound, real? fake? and if faked, how.

also when lorne was reading her, the first time she shocked him, and he said she had some power of her own, what kind of power, is it extra-human, cause lorne has read a lot of people and demons, and it looked like her power was something he hadn't come across yet.

i think this episode, and that line was what eventually started me thinking of cordy as a hidden potential (which would somewhat explain rolandro's paragraph about her sticking with the scoobies, when they were the cause of so much of her pain)

any thoughts?

DamnSkippy

12-08-2003, 06:58 PM

I just figured she had a sore throat or strained her voice in RL. It's not like she could take a few days off to recover since they shoot these things so quickly.

Guess I don't think that deeply on some of this stuff. I just thought the "shock" he got probably came from the guy shooting her the visions from W&H. Fred talked about communicating and how it's all some form of electricity (I think, I missed that part tonight) so it kinda fit in with Lorne getting shocked when he tried to intercept "the call". Maybe. ;)

rolandro

12-08-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
. . .Kinda off-topic, but they gave Birthday on FOX Saturday night, and I was just remembered how completely willing Cordelia was to go through more pain (and possible deformities) to help Angel and the mission, and how Angel never really had a clue of how much she sacrificed.

It just pisses me off they fucked it up in S4 instead of having Angel deal with the fact that Cordy sacrificed her life, literally, for him and his mission. There could've been an arc right there.

I watched this, and when Skip tells Cordy he can make her a hugely successful actress, Cordy's response is 'You can?' CC does an absolutely wonderful thing here - she makes you understand that this reality is clearly a second-place finisher to being vision-girlin her personal sweepstakes, like she's dissappointed that Skip can do this for her - whatever, she's not happy about it, not completely.

tojoson

12-08-2003, 07:15 PM

DS:, no she shocked lorne lightly first, aand he said the line, then he went in again, and the mystic started broadcasting and it threw lorne across the room

starlet2367

12-08-2003, 08:59 PM

This ep made me sad b/c I realized how many storylines got started here that were never really resolved to my satisfaction.

1. Cordy's power - what is it and how did it (or did it at all) affect her decision/her manipulation to be Jasmine's toady

2. Skip - still funny, but was he good or evil?

3. Connor's presence being inexplicable and horrible, and yet they gave him a free pass at the end. Why?

4. Billy being sort of a wimp when all was said and done

5. The visions killing Cordy; actually, the visions, period. They were part of Angel's life from the very first ep and now...oops someone check those files at W&H. Maybe we can go kill a client (yawn)

The only thing vaguely interesting to me was Angel working for W&H and everyone's response about it being so evil. And then 18 months later, they're all working for W&H. It's almost like their brains went numb. I'd say it was foreshadowing if I didn't know that ME pulled it out of their assi.

So, despite the heavy A/C action, it hasn't turned out to be one of my favorite eps. I'll tell you what I did love, though, and miss almost painfully, is that subtle, silent communication the 3 guys shared, but mostly Wes and Angel. There's no room for subtlety anymore--it's all exposition, exposition, exposition.

I know, I know. Take it to the venting thread. ;)

Kel

Angelia

12-08-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by starlet2367

The only thing vaguely interesting to me was Angel working for W&H and everyone's response about it being so evil. And then 18 months later, they're all working for W&H. It's almost like their brains went numb. I'd say it was foreshadowing if I didn't know that ME pulled it out of their assi.
Kel

I was thinking the same thing while watching. I especially noticed while listening to Wes's part of the conversation before Angel goes to break Billy out.

Wesley: "I don't need to explain to you that if Wolfram and Hart are behind this mission it can't be good."

Wesley: "Just because Lilah tells you that this man is wrongly imprisoned doesn't make it so."

Wesley: "Nor do I have to explain to you that helping them violates everything you stand for."

After hearing Wes say this last line I was thinking to myself 'Yet Angel's now running it and you yourself are working there.' I really hope at some point in S5 Cordy comes out of her coma and kicks all their asses for being such morons. Maybe it'll knock something back into place and get their brains working again.

After reading your list Kel you really do start to see that alot was never followed through on. I remember when S4 started that they kept saying in articles that S4 was like S3, part II. I thought we would finally be getting some follow through on stuff that was brought up in S3 and instead of getting answers all we got was more questions that now will never get answered.

Dannyblue

12-08-2003, 10:48 PM

Despite all the good points you made (I also wanted to kick someone for not following up on the "You've got some power of your own!" thing) I still love this episode.

Someone at ME (maybe even JW) admitted that they like to throw all kinds of intriguing tidbits into the episodes, hints and possibilities and random stuff they might or might not follow up on later somewhere down the line. Then, if they do follow up on that stuff eventually, it looks like complex forshadowing, like they have this grand scheme for the series overall when, in fact, they're winging it a lot of the time. It also means that a lot of the stuff they plant doesn't always get followed up on.

And, about Billy, I think he was probably created to be this Big Bad evil somewhere down the line. That's just the vibe I got. But, as we know, a new story idea can change whatever the writers/producers intended. So Big Bad Billy became sort of mundane, but still evil, Billy, and the Monster of the Week in one of my favorite AtS eps.

LaLa247

12-09-2003, 05:23 PM

Tonight was ToGoM.

Y'know, this is the first time that I sat through this ep giving it my complete attention and I see how damn extreme this ep is. The scene with the gunplay made me cringe, and the part where Gunn snapped nearly sent shivers down my spine- it was a good Gunn-centric ep, and it really went into who Gunn was and what his whole "deal" was regarding who he considers his friends and family.

Syn

12-09-2003, 07:07 PM

I love, love, love TOGOM. Excellent Gunn episode--though really, I love all the Gunn episodes. Yes, even Double or Nothing. Shaddup. All the elements were there, everyone was on. We got Angel in leather pants, a chilling performance from Lorne and adorable/kickass Fred. Plus, the Furies. Mmm...Angel. tee-hee.

The episode still comes off as intense even after watching it so many times and that's definitely a good thing. The only thing that still doesn't sit well with me is Gunn telling Angel that they weren't friends. Hello? Cuz that big manly hug in Heartthrob meant nothing, I see...

But that's a minor quibble and I'll shut up now. :)

LaLa247

12-09-2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Syn
The only thing that still doesn't sit well with me is Gunn telling Angel that they weren't friends. Hello? Cuz that big manly hug in Heartthrob meant nothing, I see... Y'know, I always thought his abrupt "we're not friends" was just a reaction to the insecurity/friendship/loyalty/personal issues he was going through at that time; I think Angel knew Gunn considered him to be a friend...he was just being considerate of Gunn's space. ;)

tojoson

12-09-2003, 11:09 PM

awakening:

conner told angel that it's angel that cordy loves,

angel says (to cordy) ' there's no place i'd rather be--than here with you,

the look of horror on angel's face when he says 'buffy' while angelus is coming out,

all this in angel's dream of his perfect fantasy.

oh sure, angel only wants buffy'

KarKar

12-10-2003, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by LaLa247
Y'know, I always thought his abrupt "we're not friends" was just a reaction to the insecurity/friendship/loyalty/personal issues he was going through at that time;
I think it's also an initiation rite of some sort. Join AI but remember, Angel is dangerous, do not tap on the glass, take his hair gel, and always be prepared to stake his ass.

Cordy passed that test in "Somnunbolist," Wes did it in the "Evil Seed" one where the demon taunted Wes, and now it's Gunn's turn.

LaLa247

12-10-2003, 10:49 AM

See? What Kar said. :)

"Awakening".

I have resisted watching this episode for a very, very long time and finally sat through it last night. And I enjoyed it as a whole, it was a clever way to get Angel to lose his soul and was actually realistic (There was no way he was gonna lose his soul by just sleeping with some one). My thoughts:

- Really, was Not!Cordelia's speech enough to get Angel to do the spell? Was he that persuaded by that, because that speech was kind of weak, man. Angel's a dolt.

- Since when was Angelus and Angel separate people? This is my biggest problem....

- "...you might have to stake me." "Okay." "-IF..." -- loved this interaction between Angel and Connor! Boreanaz and Vinnie did a great job with dad's awkwardness to son's uncomfortable stance at his father telling him the three words. It really looked like Angel's words affected Connor...at least for five seconds.

- I have come to the conclusion that Angel has/had a crush on Gunn. Yes, Gunn- he's joined the masses. Welcome, Angel, to the Gunn Lovers Club. I'm just sayin' Gunn in Fake!World was all cutesy and smiling, and the "Oooh- can I play with it?" was just something incredibly cute for Gunn to say. So, while Angel obviously thinks highly of Gunn, he has a crush on him.

- It was kinda obvious the people in Fake!World was Angel's perception of them, and it was very favorable. I was kinda surprised to see how highly he considers everyone.

- He also thinks highly of his kid. Yes, he knows his son whines and is bitchy and is...well, like HIM- yet he wants the kid to fight at his side and so on.

- Apparently, Angel thinks he's done NOTHING wrong in the last two years, 'cause I didn't see him apologize for shit in that ep. Everyone was sorry, and he gladly accepted. Maybe when he got his soul back, he should've gotten a clue. Ass.

- I liked the love scene. It was awkward and real and pretty damn well done for a man and a woman who was about five months preggers. Hey, I didn't even hear the "Buffy" at the end- please tell me they muted that.

- I'm gonna start calling Angel "Three-Thrust-Angel" Hehehehehehehehe.

- Finally, when Angelus "awoke", was he looking at Not!Cordelia and laughing evilly, or the jar holding his soul?

DamnSkippy

12-10-2003, 11:27 AM

I did find it funny that after all was resolved, all he had to do to lose his soul was just get inside Cordy to lose it. He had to sleep on it with Buffy. :D

tojoson

12-10-2003, 05:48 PM

carpe noctem:

did you know that the guy playing 'marcus' is in reality ron howard's father.

and in the btvs season 1 episode 'teacher's pet' with the preying mantis, the old teacher who the mantis had stolen her name, that was ron howard's mother.

Dannyblue

12-10-2003, 05:51 PM

"Carpe Noctem". Still hate this episode. Hate it! Why I keep watching it, I'll never know. There are some funny parts to it. But the storyline...eh. It's like they thought, "Let's put a dirty old man in Angel's body," and didn't bother to develop the story beyond that.

For a long time after CN aired, I kept picking on it for its badness. I meade sure everyone knew I didn't like it. Deciding I'd made my point, and I was getting kind of obsessed with tearing the ep apart, I made myself stop insulting the darned thing. But, after watching some of it again, I realized it deserved to be picked on.

And, about TOGOM, I always liked it, and was surprised by the kind of lukewarm reaction it got here and at other boards. Great episode. Riveting. I even like the part where they went artsy and had Geo, the demon, and Lorne all talking at the same time. The demon's monologue creeped me out.

Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't know who did the wardrobe for TOGOM, but I wish they'd stuck with that style. Both Angel and Cordy both looked sexy and great.

LaLa247

12-10-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue

And, about TOGOM, I always liked it, and was surprised by the kind of lukewarm reaction it got here and at other boards. Great episode. Riveting. Was there really that bad of a reaction? I don't remember, but then again, I didn't really remember the ep to begin with.

Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't know who did the wardrobe for TOGOM, but I wish they'd stuck with that style. Both Angel and Cordy both looked sexy and great. I would add Wes, Fred, and Gunn to that list. Wes looked sexy, Fred looked demure (I think is the word...), and Gunn looked like GUNN. Great wardrobing for that episode.

LaLa247

12-11-2003, 06:05 PM

*blip*

Tonight was "Fredless". Random thoughts-

- So Fred was the first person to notice the C/Aness, huh? She looked all sad and disappointed during the patching up scene. I felt bad for her, although it was kinda cool how Fred became the "eyes" of the audience.

- Gunn was so cute in this episode! When Cordy hurt her knee and he thought she had a vision? "Yes! Yes! Yes!" LOL

- The mock up of B/A by Wes and Cordy still makes me laugh. The way Wes deepens his voice and Cordy's chin trembling kills me. But it's kinda obvious how the angle of AtS was NOT B/A-centered like it is now, considering how everyone was convinced that B/A was over...how things change over a year.

- I love Fred's parents.

- Very good acting by Amy Acker in the train station. I teared up, dammit.

- Look at the short skirt on Cordy! No wonder she put that jacket on halfway through.

- In all honesty, I love crazy!Fred, but I thought the attachment the FG had to her in "Fredless" was very unrealistic. They had known her for an extremely short time and were just getting to know her- so why were they acting like it was a big tragedy? It just seemed like something that was taken out of a Mary Sue story, but I digress.

LaLa247

12-12-2003, 04:14 PM

*blip*

Alone, all alone...

"Billy"!

'Bout ten minutes in and the C/Aness is in full swing.

This is, without a doubt, one of my favorite AtS episodes.

ETA: I love Gunn. He looks so scared that he's gonna hurt Fred- this was probably when I was hoping for G/F (Although inside I was still rooting a bit for C/G). Honestly, JAR is one of the most underrated actors, and he never gets acclaim for it (Like AD, NB, ASH, etc).

Also, Angel never laid a hand on Cordelia ever, right (With the exception of him choking Not!Cordelia in Inside Out)? While on that subject- check out Cordelia with her feminist self! ;) She was a total B.I.T.C.H and it rocked (Who wrote this ep, by the way?).

C/A, C/A, C/A- :D

tojoson

12-12-2003, 06:30 PM

angel: 'don't stiffin up'
cordy: eyebrows raising), 'yah, you eather'

love it

CC has some pretty well developed upper arms and shoulders, must be her rock climbing

QueenC

12-12-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by LaLa247
"Billy"!
(Who wrote this ep, by the way?).

If I remember correctly, it was a combined Jeff Bell/Tim Minear effort.

Lori :)

Dannyblue

12-13-2003, 03:39 AM

This really was the Golden Age, my friends. It's like honey. You just want to lap it up. :D

Isn't "Billy" the one that had us wondering which parts were written by TM, and which by JB. Cordy was so good in this and, while we loved TM as a writer overall (I always loved his writing), we noticed that Cordy often got lost in his episodes in favor of "darker" characters. So a lot of us speculated that JB wrote most of the Cordy parts.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if TM wrote a lot of the Cordy stuff, because she's actually quite dark in this one. Well, for Cordy.

My favorite line was Cordy saying she was getting used to being creeped out and comforted at the same time. I also loved that Angel felt comfortable enough with her to describe how killing as Angelus was about "pleasure". I can't imagine him saying that to anyone else without looking all ashamed, maybe afraid of how they'd react. But, with Cordy, he was completely comfortable making the admission.

felmitch

12-13-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Dannyblue
My favorite line was Cordy saying she was getting used to being creeped out and comforted at the same time. I also loved that Angel felt comfortable enough with her to describe how killing as Angelus was about "pleasure". I can't imagine him saying that to anyone else without looking all ashamed, maybe afraid of how they'd react. But, with Cordy, he was completely comfortable making the admission.

Dannyblue this was without a doubt one of the best Angel/Cordy scenes in the entire ep. It was so special because he wouldn't have done that with anyone else.

Watching these old eps just re-emphasizes how many good story possibilities ME dropped. So sad.

LaLa247

12-13-2003, 10:10 AM

Actually, I think Cordy got quite a bit dark...for anyone. She was ready, willing, and able to kill this Billy dude with no questions asked and that was why Angel stopped her. Doing so would leave blood on her hands, and her blood innocence would be gone (It's X:WP all over again, I tell you!).

Originally posted by Dannyblue
My favorite line was Cordy saying she was getting used to being creeped out and comforted at the same time. I liked the big smile he gave her as he made her admission over his admission a slight joke. It's nice. :)

LaLa247

12-17-2003, 08:35 PM

Posting after myself- AGAIN. Ah, well...

TNT ran Souless last night, and I was somewhat surprised at how much I enjoyed it, nearly a year later. So, naturally, I have random thoughts-

- This was as close to Angelus as AtS had gotten (considering the Angelus that was presented in the next four episodes was a sad excuse for a villian). Loved the sinister angle he gave to the "Teddy Bears Picnic", the way he leered at everyone who came down to talk to him, and the way his eyes were so...they were completely dead- I totally give Boreanaz kudos here, he handled the ep exceptionally well.

- Like I've said before, I'm not into the whole "Angelus and Angel are separate people" shit, but for this episode it was suitable, considering it could've gotten messy.

- Angelus taunting Gunn and Fred- it still creeps me out. The music that played as he slowly dug into Fred was really appropriate, it was like Fred was seeing her "nice man" and her hero slip away to the monster that stood before her, and I think the look on her face showed that. He really stabbed her where it hurt- her trust- and it was one of the many good scenes in that episode.

- The look and change of tone/demeanor when Wes mentioned Cordelia- wow. It definitely looked like Angelus was just as pissed off as Angel was- beside the jab that he made (knowing the others were watching) he really didn't find ConCord amusing, did he?

- LOVED the first Not!Cordy/Angelus confrontation. The dialogue shot off rapidly and with enough sharpness to it. Loved it.

- Not!Cordy and Angelus confrontation was the right opportunity to reveal that Cordy wasn't Cordy and have Evil!Cordy and Angelus raising hell, but whatever. I mean, come on, when she told him to look into her eyes, he SO should've been able to have known that she wasn't Cordy.

- The whole Fred/Gunn/Wes triangle was absolutely ridiculous and really not appropriate in "Souless". It was really out of place. BUT, since it was there, I have to say I found it really hard to feel sympathy for either Fred or Wes. Gunn really was the one who got screwed over here.

- Perhaps (to me) one of the finest scenes was the one with Boreanaz and Vinnie. Those two really worked well off each other and it showed. The way Angelus got more sinister as soon as Connor was around and the way Connor's voice got almost child-like when the subject of Holtz came up- fine acting, indeed.

- Why didn't anyone say anything when Not!Cordy shut off the camera and the audio? Why didn't they come running down?

- The last scene between Not!Cordy and Angelus was downright tense and emotional. Liked it a lot.

- Sean Astin did an awesome job with the directing. Loved the camera pans and angles that he did. Very cool.

- When did Not!Cordy have the time to steal Angel's soul?

Dannyblue

12-18-2003, 07:50 AM

I think the episodes after "Soulless" are the result of someone saying, "We can't let Angelus be too bad or the viewers will hold it against Angel." I think that's also why, all of a sudden, they started acting like Angel and Angelus were too totally seperate people. So that even if Angelus did things certain fans found totally disgusting, they wouldn't blame Angel for it.

Well, someone should have told them that we pretty much expect the worst from Angelus. Heck, we like to expect the worst of him. Look at the fic about him. And, even without thinking of Angelus as a totally seperate being, we don't let the things he does when he's evil effect how we see Angel...other than to understand the guilt he feels, and why he's trying to atone.

I have a hard time believing ME decided to do that arc the way it was done. I mean, look at the things they've had Spike do, then expected us to still sympathise with him. Heck, in season 7, he went on a killing spree, and was shown killing his victims and burying the bodies. But it wouldn't surprise me if the WB (which always gave ME less freedom than UPN) said, "Look, we can't leave the fans with an image of the lead, the hero, of one of our shows murdering people all over LA. So you can turn him evil. You can hint that he's doing bad things, even have him bragging about it. But you can't show it."

jujube1013

12-20-2003, 01:03 AM

"Birthday" was on today, full of C/a goodness. here's a couple of thoughts.
when angel went to "see" the conduits they said Cordy was destined to die, my thoughts to them she was but skip and jasmine cooked up a plot for jasmine to come to earth, jasmine being a fallen higher being or not even a higher being(do we know she was a higher being for sure) skip took cordy w/o the ptbs knowing and when he "demonized " her her put jasmine in her to "incubate"
when skip told them that everything was pre-destined why would they believe him hello! bad guy

LaLa247

12-20-2003, 10:13 AM

I wanna know who was whispering to Cordy, then proceeded to shove her out of Angel's body.

:eyebrow:

tojoson

12-23-2003, 05:47 PM

WITW:

best line,
cordy: open the damn door
angel: kinda hard
cordy: kinda noticed

best action:
cordy: it's good it fades away quickly
angel :glances down, takes off jacket, covers groin

best combination:
cordy: and as long as nothing's taken off, (the look in her eyes when she says) 'or inserted', it's all good

Jake

01-04-2004, 07:22 PM

Taped it over vacation and just watched again. What a great episode. I remember seeing it the first time, and thinking after that great ending, with the floating semi-demon Cordy, about the terrific storylines that would be forthcoming. That they never happened is incredibly disappointing.

ETA: other than WITW.

tojoson

01-05-2004, 10:49 PM

today was 'the price' where the slugs invade the hotel, i'm stumped by something.

apparantly the slugs were trying to get away from conner (the destroyer) in the quartoth dimension. holtz usually refered to angel as angelus, and conner always listened to holtz and thought of angel as angelus, but when angel was questioning the slug in fred, she told him 'the destroyer was coming for you ANGEL'. that was the slug talking,
how did it know about angel, not angelus

jujube1013

01-07-2004, 08:15 PM

TNT is starting all over again with "City Of..." on Fri. jan.09

LaLa247

01-07-2004, 08:18 PM

Tonight was "Benediction".

I was thoroughly impressed with how Vinnie and Boreanaz portrayed their characters, especially with the mimicking of movements (same facial expressions, crossing their arms at the same time).

jujube1013

01-07-2004, 08:23 PM

i was looking at CC's hair and i accidentally got her haircut in those last s4 eps:eek:

Jake

01-08-2004, 06:20 PM

Watching "Tomorrow." Charisma is so great, and the rest of the crew is solid too. In hindsight, it is just sad. At the time, it held such potential. What a waste.

QueenC

01-08-2004, 11:00 PM

Didn't actually see it today, but now that you mention it... I loved it when Fred was poking Angel with the stake as if to say "Don't you dare even think about getting too happy, buddy!"

I miss the way it was...

Lori :)

LaLa247

01-12-2004, 04:43 PM

"Lonely Hearts" is repeating.

All I gotta say is...VAST. They ruined the VAST, man! :bawl:

Bianka

01-12-2004, 07:59 PM

On the scene where Angel is looking for the killer and Kate is at Angel Investigations looking through Angel's stuff what is the name of the song that was playing and who sings it? Please pm me or e-mail me with the answer. Thanks. :D

LaLa247

01-12-2004, 08:11 PM

That would be VAST's Touched. VAST was used largely in season one, noteably in the six-minute trailer.

Official Site (www.realvast.com)

ETA: The song is on their debut album "Visual Audio Sensory Theater", and you can hear a sample of it, as well as see the video in the "Experience" section.

Bianka

01-12-2004, 09:23 PM

Thank you! :angel:

starlet2367

01-13-2004, 07:41 AM

Thanks, La! I think I'm a VAST fan, now. I'd never been to their site before. It's impressive! Go to vitals and play with the Vastbot. :snort:

The backgrounds for each page are a work of art.

Kel

LaLa247

01-13-2004, 01:26 PM

Isn't it lovely?

Oh, and if you look to the lower right hand side, there's an active flame. Click on it. A thing fades in where you can change the background music.

LaLa247

01-20-2004, 05:12 PM

In honor of IWRY playing tonight, I give you selections of TWoP's Strega's review (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=10&story=372&limit=all&sort=) of the episode.

While Doyle prepares an incantation, he tells Angel that the oracles are finicky, so Angel should quickly ask his questions and leave. The bricks vanish, and Angel passes through the door and onto the set of Xena. Looks are exchanged. Oh god. They start kissing again. Do I have to describe this? They end up making out on top of the table, and I think they borrowed some microphones from Dawson's Creek to get those horribly loud lip-smacking noises. Just before I have to rip my own eyes out, we cut to the sun setting. They simper and get all gooey-eyed, and I race to inject myself with insulin. While they kiss again, some ice cream drips onto Angel's utterly hairless chest. I begin to sob. [...] Once the ice cream dripped onto Angel, I covered my eyes completely, because I knew what was going to happen and there's nothing on this earth that could make me watch it. All I know is, there are more lip-smacking sounds, and Buffy giggles. Buffy says, no, that's not what she meant, adding, "I'm spent. Pleasantly numb, even." Donations for the therapy I'll need after witnessing this scene should be sent c/o Wing. ["I'm woozy just having to read about it." -- Wing Chun] "This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he's ever known for another. He is not a lower being." Oh good, add to Angel's martyrdom complex; thank you, Lady Oracle. Buffy asks why, and Angel answers, "Because more than ever, I know how much I love you." Oh, not this conversation again. Angel suddenly looks at her with horrified rapture, or rapturous horror, and waggles his head a bit. I'm not sure what emotion he was trying to convey there. Maybe all the junk food he ate finally caught up with him. She gets ready to exit again, and Angel looks down at the smashed clock on the floor. When he looks up, Buffy has left. "That's it," he says. Johanna writes a note that reads: "Dear Joss, How are you? I am fine. Love, Jo. P.S. About the clocks? WE GET IT. Thanks."

Hee! I love her recaps.

Seriously, B/A...it was fine there. S1, he just left SunnyD- I accepted it. It didn't change the fact that the ep was cringe-worthy and corny as all hell, but I accepted it.

It also confirmed why exactly those two can't be together- what was Angel gonna do- go back to SunnyD and work in retail while Buffy fights the demons? Come on...